Jesus is a Mormon

[_Sam Harris]

Dear Jason,

I am sorry, but if you are as theologically adept as you have claimed to be, you would have no problem with starting at the beginning, taking my post piece by piece and continuing to the end. There's a lot there, because a lot of time and research went into it. With regards to the LDS and racism issue, look at my thread on that, again, so you can understand the scriptures I referenced; I had to correct the LDS gentleman who quoted them.

Did you expect me to pull a Loran, go "poop" and run away? I dealt with issues like the one Harmony posted for about five years. And when I asked questions like she did, folks did what you initially did, brushed off the questions, and focused on the questioner. Why is that?

Jason, you asked for a debate. I asked you questions to start that debate. Questions about the Bible, questions about your religious stance (and I looked at the beginning of your posting history, all you were doing was calling people bigots), and a request for you not to think of all Evangelicals as folks who wanted to see you in hell. This woman does not want that. This woman doesn't even feel she has the knowledge or authority to say anyone is heaven or hell bound. I'm just passionate about MY faith. It's a personal thing, that cannot be adequately described on a public forum.

I'm sorry that I have overwhelmed you so. Take your time, answer my questions. You wanted a debate, I brought my first few topics. Shall we continue?


[Edited for repetition.]

[_Jason Bourne]

Dear Jason,

I am sorry, but if you are as theologically adept as you have claimed to be, you would have no problem with starting at the beginning, taking my post piece by piece and continuing to the end. There's a lot there, because a lot of time and research went into it. With regards to the LDS and racism issue, look at my thread on that, again, so you can understand the scriptures I referenced; I had to correct the LDS gentleman who quoted them.

Did you expect me to pull a Loran, go "poop" and run away? I dealt with issues like the one Harmony posted for about five years. And when I asked questions like she did, folks did what you initially did, brushed off the questions, and focused on the questioner. Why is that?

Jason, you asked for a debate. I asked you questions to start that debate. Questions about the Bible, questions about your religious stance (and I looked at the beginning of your posting history, all you were doing was calling people bigots), and a request for you not to think of all Evangelicals as folks who wanted to see you in hell. This woman does not want that. This woman doesn't even feel she has the knowledge or authority to say anyone is heaven or hell bound. I'm just passionate about MY faith. It's a personal thing, that cannot be adequately described on a public forum.

I'm sorry that I have overwhelmed you so. Take your time, answer my questions. You wanted a debate, I brought my first few topics. Shall we continue?


[Edited for repetition.]

Sigh....

Boy you are antagnositic. I will try to get back to your lengthy post later. I am going to be away for a while and may not have time to do this before I leave.

[_Sam Harris]

Strange, when I logged in, I still saw you here. But pray take all the time you need.

Antagonistically yours,

GIMR

[_Yoda]

Sigh....

Boy you are antagnositic. I will try to get back to your lengthy post later. I am going to be away for a while and may not have time to do this before I leave.

Sorry, Jason, but I think you're overreacting. GIMR is not being antagonistic. If you choose not to address her issues, fine. If you think that she is giving you "too much", pick one issue she has raised and go from there. No one is saying you HAVE to address everything at once.

If you're traveling, that's cool. I know I'll be interested in your responses, as will GIMR when you return.

Frankly, I think what made GIMR a little cranky is that fact that she spent a great deal of time researching some issues and pulling quotes and the only thing you had to say was "this is too much". I found that a little rude.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sigh....

Boy you are antagnositic. I will try to get back to your lengthy post later. I am going to be away for a while and may not have time to do this before I leave.

Sorry, Jason, but I think you're overreacting. GIMR is not being antagonistic. If you choose not to address her issues, fine. If you think that she is giving you "too much", pick one issue she has raised and go from there. No one is saying you HAVE to address everything at once.

If you're traveling, that's cool. I know I'll be interested in your responses, as will GIMR when you return.

Frankly, I think what made GIMR a little cranky is that fact that she spent a great deal of time researching some issues and pulling quotes and the only thing you had to say was "this is too much". I found that a little rude.

Ok Ok!!

I concede!

I took a pot shot at Harmony and over reacted to GIMR.

GIMR, I will try to respond to some of your commens tomorrow.

[_Jason Bourne]

I love the posters here. The minute you stop bending over, you're guilty of ad hom, even if their response post had more to do with asking the person who started the post what their problem was, rather than debating the issue.

Ok. Sorry. Let's move on.

Jason, I do not care what your leanings are towards LDS.

Then why did you make an issue out of what you assume my leanings are>

I've met some strange people on the net this past year who are all over the spectrum with regards to "belief", yet swear up and down every aspect of the LDS faith is legit. The temple ceremony was taken from Masonic ritual. You mean to tell me that early Jews were shaking each other's hands in between fast, grain, wine, offerings?

Did you even read what I said about the LDS temple ceremony? If you had you would not have said what you siad above.

Since you're so knowledgeable about the Bible,

I believe so, at least as far as what it teaches doctrinally.

tell me how many different types of psalms are there?

I do not know the answer to this. Is it relevent?

What is the overall theme of the psalms?

The Psalms have many themes but overall they seem to focus on worship of God, His glory and the miserable state of human beings.

The central theme of the Old Testament, and the purpose of it?

From a Christain prespective or a Jewish perspective?

Can you tell me how the books came to be in the Old Testament (we know some of the ways New Testament canon came into place, but how did the Old Testament canon come to be accepted)?

If you speak of how the various books became canonized I must plead ignorance for the Old Testament but I am familiar with how the New Testament books were canonized.

As the books progress, what is God trying to tell the Israelite people?

To worship Him and they are chosen and set apart to demonstrate His glory to the world. It was for Him though, not for them.

What are the different genres of literature in the Old Testament?

Please clarify.

But if you don't mind, can you point me out to sources which prove that the early church of the New Testament is similar to that of the LDS church?

I am not sure I can prove this to you. You will note that I said in some cases it resembles the early Church and in others it does not.

Gotta run right now. I will try to get back to more later.

[_Jason Bourne]

Again, I ask you to try, just try my dear, to differentiate between fundamentalist Christians and Evangelicals. Fundies are an annoying, pissy lot, but not all evangelicals are fundamentalist. Not all evangelicals think everyone outside their good graces is going to hell. Not all evangelicals fit your stereotype. Can you do that? If you can't, then I'll just leave you alone. But if you can, let me know, ok?

I am not sure why you brought this up. All I said was the EVs understand the Bible one way, based on reformed theology. The only EVs I know, or have had interaction with are what you would call Fundies. If there are liberal EVs, and I assume there are because you're telling me there are, I have had no interaction with any of them. Well I take them back. I have read a book by a SBC pastor named Bruce Gorely, I believe. The book is called The Godmakers (I am not kidding) and it is a scathing rebuke of how the fundies in the SBC have taken over the convention. If you have not read it you may want to get it.

And as far as not knowing what your stance is on the LDS church, your interaction with me seems pretty telling.

Really? Other then this post I have been pretty sympathetic to much of what you post especially the experiences you had as an LDS person who is black.

But if you want to elaborate more on what you think, go right ahead, I would love to know.

Grew up LDS in an inactive home. Was a "wild teen" but gave that up tp serve a missoin. Was always conservative TBM and avid reader of LDS doctrine and history from 19 on till the past few years and now I am more a "liberal" LDS who is trying to figure out what to do about the things I have found out that do not parlay well into the more faithful LDS history I was always taught. I believe in God and Jesus and have faith there and after that I am not much sure of anything else. My experiences with feeling "burned with LDS history is also causing me to read and explore both sides of the Christian foundational claims as well.

Bible distortions as a whole come from mere reading, not study. I have come to learn this over the past year or so of my own study. I know all too well how people can twist scripture. Take the scripture in Matthew about the two folks in the field at Christ's coming, and how one would be left? Tell me, who is it that's left? And why do you think so?

I always understood this to mean one would be caught up to meet Christ and the other left for the burning of the world. I understand many EVs believe the one taken is in the pre trib rapture and the other left to go through it.

What about Romans 2: 14-16? How does that address the claim that only Christians are going to heaven, and that God's wrath is simply the rule for everyone else?

Right now I do not have time to get into this one.

Maybe more later.

[_Sam Harris]

Jason, thank you for taking the time to respond. I will get back to you more in depth this weekend. Some of your answers are a bit simplistic, and to be honest, that's normal given how deeply people deal with scripture these days, but we will address that later. The point I am trying to make is that when debating on an issue such as the one Harmony raised, have all your ducks in a row before you render something irrelevant. I will elaborate later this weekend. At the moment I'm going to bed, as I didn't sleep much last night and have to work tomorrow (been out of full time work all this month).

The questions I asked you with regards to the Bible are important, because in order to know the Bible you need to have more than a cursory understanding. Plenty of people memorize scriptures that they don't even know the true meaning of. Misinterpretation is a big problem. With regards to the famous "rapture" scripture, your answer is the perception that most people in Christianity have. However, it is not correct. The scriptures don't say who gets taken, if you go back and look. People filled in the blanks. As have many with regards to the Bible. With regards to Mormonism, there are a lot of things that the church simply used as "fillers", and tried to back their claims up with the Bible, because they probably knew most people weren't going to read it in depth. Temple ceremonies (which is more mosaic in leaning than early Christian church, if you really want to make a comparison), Word of Wisdom (there are scriptures that say there is no "unclean" food), the whole racism thing (the Bible doesn't back the church at all on that one). Unless you are familiar with ancient Jewish culture, alone and also how it relates to Near Eastern culture at that time, how poly/monotheism relate to Israel, the geography of Israel and the Near East, the cultures Israel was surrounded by and how they relate to Israel, as well as the political landscape (just for beginners), you're not going to know what you're reading. The Bible is a very esoteric text, you need to dig and to search. That is why I get ticked when folks try to claim Jesus told them something.

The octegenarians in SLC ain't having tea with Christ. They are taking their perceptions on what the world should be, forging Jesus' signature, and making you poor people swallow it. And that's not fair.

As far as your motivations, the reason why I asked is because everyone who is here is motivated by something. We're all motivated by our beliefs. Whether they include God or not. They color our worlds. I am simply wary of dealing with people who claim to believe in nothing, yet act more fearful than the most hellfire and brimstone brainwashed of Christians. Such folk you really can't rationalize with anyway. You also brought forth the challenge that if I were to know your posting history, I'd understand you. I clicked on your username, went to the beginning, and saw you calling people bigots, and defending the church. Defending the church, no problem. Calling people bigots just because, not good. I can count on one hand the number of folks here who could fit that label. Just like the word racist, bigot should not be tossed about lightly. Upon the heads of those who deserve it however, dump away. Maybe one day they'll get a clue.

More this weekend. I'll address your posts piece by piece then. I'll try to bring along my references, but one book is the weight of a small human, that might have to wait until I get home on tuesday. I nanny this weekend. That's a spiritual experience in and of itself, because I'm always praying for strength not to strangle those bad ass kids I watch.

[_Jason Bourne]

Just so you know I am not ignoring you, I will be away for a while.

[_Sam Harris]

Please enjoy your vacation. When you return, I'll have a thread in the Celestial forum for us to play with. Cheers!