If I were a Christian......

[_Jersey Girl]

(http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm#what)

As I thought.

This is your only source.

His references to Jesus were late additions.

See http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jd ... Jesus.html.

How old would Josephus have been upon Jesus' death? Probably not even born. Hardly contemporaneous evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

So, that leads me to my next question. How is it that you believe in Jesus Christ when there is no contemporaneous evidence for Him outside of the miracle stories of the Gospels?

P[/quote]

Not meaning to drive these exchanges off topic (whatever the topic has evolved into) but, Plutarch, do you believe that Plato, Aristotle, Homer and Sophocles were historical figures? If so, what do you base that belief on?

Jersey Girl

(Who can see exactly where you're going with this)

[_moksha]

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

[Next question: On what basis?]

P

If Jesus were a fictional character, would this tend to bolster any LDS claims?

I see that on this forum most folks, including MS and you, do not want to answer my questions out of the fear of where they might go.

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

On what basis?

P

I certainly believe in Jesus, although I suspect that a lot of the redaction in the story about him has resulted in some degree of unknowable error. I remain a follower none-the-less.

[_rcrocket]

Not meaning to drive these exchanges off topic (whatever the topic has evolved into) but, Plutarch, do you believe that Plato, Aristotle, Homer and Sophocles were historical figures? If so, what do you base that belief on?

No, I don't. But I don't think Shakespeare is necessarily either. I think there are "schools" of thought which have led to publications by these men, but I certainly could be wrong and they could be real people. I think Plutarch was a real person. But, it doesn't really matter whether they were real people or schools of thought. One doesn't stake their eternal security on any of those figures, nor do they ask such of their followers.

P

[_rcrocket]

Or, does the New Testament permit a mere belief that Jesus is a symbol, that He did not perform His miracles, that He did not work the atonement?

P

I believe that Jesus was both a historical figure and the Savior of the world. I stated that earlier. Yes, I believe the miracles of the New Testament. Now what?[/quote]

Are you surprised to know that you are the only correspondent on this thread who has confessed the Lord?

P

[_Sam Harris]

What the...? Are you honestly trying to counter the claim that Jesus was a historical figure? What on earth are you thinking, P.?

Do you believe Jesus to be a historical figure?

[Next question: On what basis?]

P

Do I "believe" he was, as in---a matter of faith? Yeah, I guess so. Frankly, I don't really care one way or the other whether or not he was a real, historical figure. Moreover, you didn't answer my question.

Are you trying to counter the claim that JC was a historical figure?

In answer to your question, no.

So, do you believe the entire New Testament miracles story? If not, what are the limits of your belief?
If you believe the entire miracles story, how can you do so with no evidence?

P

What's weak is a person who wears the mantle of God's chosen, follower of Christ, and member of the one true church who carries himself about, looking down on everyone who dares to disagree with him with heartless disdain.

I'll answer your question when I get around to it, and if. Someone who can't give a person the simplest bit of courtesy won't get any in return from me. That's why your bedmates Wade and Loran don't get more than a laugh from my direction.

[_Sam Harris]

As I already said, I don't really care. I think that the significance of those stories lies in their symbolic value, not in whether they are literally and historically true or not.

The essential apostolic message is that you have to buy into the miracles story hook, line and sinker to be a true Christian.

"[Y]e should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." 1 Peter 2:9.

"Well, because of unbelief they [the Jews] were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he spare not thee." Romans 11:20-21.

"So, because you are lukewarm -- neither hot nor cold -- I am about to spit you out of my mouth." Rev. 3:16.

Or, does the New Testament permit a mere belief that Jesus is a symbol, that He did not perform His miracles, that He did not work the atonement?

P

I love the backasswards hermeunetics of TBMs. To be a Christian you have to do as Christ did. Plain and simple. Your behavior here is evidence of the fact that you have NO IDEA what that means. You display the old Mosaic belief of "hate your enemies, love your friends". I find it kind of sad...

Plutarch, who is Cornelius Tacitus? Lucian of Samosata? Suetonius? Pliny the Younger? Thallus? Phlegon? Mara Bar-Serapion? I know you've heard of the name Josephus, many have, but do the names before him ring any bells in your highly intelligen legal mind?

[_rcrocket]

What's weak is a person who wears the mantle of God's chosen, follower of Christ, and member of the one true church who carries himself about, looking down on everyone who dares to disagree with him with heartless disdain.

I'll answer your question when I get around to it, and if. Someone who can't give a person the simplest bit of courtesy won't get any in return from me. That's why your bedmates Wade and Loran don't get more than a laugh from my direction.

I don't look upon you (whom I really hardly know and with whom I have had little correspondence) with disdain. Lots have been said about free speech on this forum; I don't think it fair to attempt to ssquelch what I say by condemning it as being disdainful. I guess I wonder how it is I can advance my particular view of the world, basically defensive of the Church and its positions, without being tarred with looking down on everybody?

I merely present thoughtful challenges where I can to get people thinking about their positions. I am guilty of condemning hypocrisy, that is true, but I have never lumped you into the category of rank and putrid hypocrites. [Just kidding.]

But it does really fascinate me that in this thread, only one person has confessed the Lord Jesus Christ although all have been invited to do so in response to my questions. The point to which I am leading is that the defense of Mormonism is really a challenge on this Board, when really the defense of Christianity is necessary.

P

[_Sam Harris]

I merely present thoughtful challenges where I can to get people thinking about their positions. I am guilty of condemning hypocrisy, that is true, but I have never lumped you into the category of rank and putrid hypocrites. [Just kidding.]
P

I would hope that you've taken a break from calling us all cowards, hypocrites, and the like to look at the names of PAGAN people who wrote about Jesus. You asked for "proof" of him outside the New Testament.

And yes, I confess Jesus is the Christ...to me. What he is to anyone else is their business. I hate fundies, and will never make myself one.

[_Jersey Girl]

Not meaning to drive these exchanges off topic (whatever the topic has evolved into) but, Plutarch, do you believe that Plato, Aristotle, Homer and Sophocles were historical figures? If so, what do you base that belief on?

No, I don't. But I don't think Shakespeare is necessarily either. I think there are "schools" of thought which have led to publications by these men, but I certainly could be wrong and they could be real people. I think Plutarch was a real person. But, it doesn't really matter whether they were real people or schools of thought. One doesn't stake their eternal security on any of those figures, nor do they ask such of their followers.

P

Really? What is your evidence for the "publications"? Do they hold up under scrutiny any better than the New Testament?

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

In an attempt to edit the post above I posted twice. Please respond to this post, Plutarch.

Not meaning to drive these exchanges off topic (whatever the topic has evolved into) but, Plutarch, do you believe that Plato, Aristotle, Homer and Sophocles were historical figures? If so, what do you base that belief on?

No, I don't. But I don't think Shakespeare is necessarily either. I think there are "schools" of thought which have led to publications by these men, but I certainly could be wrong and they could be real people. I think Plutarch was a real person. But, it doesn't really matter whether they were real people or schools of thought. One doesn't stake their eternal security on any of those figures, nor do they ask such of their followers.

P

Really? What is your evidence for the "publications"? Do they hold up under scrutiny any better than the New Testament? How closer in proximity to what are believed to be the original writings are the writings of these men than the New Testament Gospels? Does anyone truly doubt that Plato. Aristotle, Sophocles and Homer existed? I know several skeptics who repeatedly use the writings of Homer as an example of the seeds for the Gospel of Mark. Have you pulled out Mark yet )in an attempt to discredit the Gospel's themselves) and were you planning to do that? Before you do so, I'm afraid you'll need to substantiate the existence of Homer. Just a suggestion... Not meaning to jump too far ahead of you, I've been down this road before.

Your argument about the historicity of Jesus in now way validates the Book of Mormon and the claims of the Prophet. See? Been down this road before.

So which is it, Plutarch? Would you like to go backwards and compare the historicity of Homer (Aristotle, Pluto, Sophocles if you wish) in an attempt to discredit the New Testament which is a key scripture to your church or would you like to move forward and substantiate the claims of the Prophet?

Kinda stuck aren't you?

Jersey Girl