Actually, according to Josh McDowell, with regards to Shakespeare and the Bible:
With perhaps a dozen or twenty exceptions, the text of every verse in the New Testament may be said to be so far settled by general consent by scholars that any dispute to its readings must relate rather to the interpretation of the words than to any doubts respecting the words themselves. But in every one of Shakespeare's thirty-seven plays there are probably a hundred readings still in dispute, a large portion of which materially effects the meaning of the passages in which they occur. (Lea, Greatest Book in the World, 15). Evidence for Christianity, p. 28)
Plutarch? Your take? What about the non-Christian sources I listed?
Edited for formatting.
If I were a Christian......
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_Sam Harris
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_Sam Harris
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The defense of Mormonism versus the defense of Christianity.
Hmmm...
In the Christianity that is a part of my life, I see a reason for hope, a guideline that gets me up in the morning and through my day. I see a figure who may not have existed, but may very well have. I see teachings that are tried and true, that show fruit, loving your neighbor, doing good to those who harm you, turning the other cheek, the latter two I had to painfully put into practice all this month, having been shafted in the worst freakin way. But in the end I was blessed. I see a dynamic faith, that when really delved into can change lives.
Mormonism...
A religion founded by a man who had a tendency to get in trouble with the law, lust after other men's woman, and look for buried treasure in the sand. A book of fiction that claims white skin is indicative of God's favor, and dark skin a curse. An additional canon that doesn't bode to well for folks like me. A hierarchy of men who seem to be more concerned with obedient tithe paying followers than with folks who are well spiritually.
Ok...Plutarch?
Hmmm...
In the Christianity that is a part of my life, I see a reason for hope, a guideline that gets me up in the morning and through my day. I see a figure who may not have existed, but may very well have. I see teachings that are tried and true, that show fruit, loving your neighbor, doing good to those who harm you, turning the other cheek, the latter two I had to painfully put into practice all this month, having been shafted in the worst freakin way. But in the end I was blessed. I see a dynamic faith, that when really delved into can change lives.
Mormonism...
A religion founded by a man who had a tendency to get in trouble with the law, lust after other men's woman, and look for buried treasure in the sand. A book of fiction that claims white skin is indicative of God's favor, and dark skin a curse. An additional canon that doesn't bode to well for folks like me. A hierarchy of men who seem to be more concerned with obedient tithe paying followers than with folks who are well spiritually.
Ok...Plutarch?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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_Gazelam
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GIMR
everything you posted under the Mormon banner above could be applied to the Christian banner above that. There were as many anti-christians around then as there are anti-mormons around now.
Do Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, and Eusebious (spellcheck) count as Christian evidence? I believe they were all almost, if not, contemporary
Do Justin Martyr, Clement of Rome, and Eusebious (spellcheck) count as Christian evidence? I believe they were all almost, if not, contemporary
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_Sam Harris
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Gaz,
I know you have trouble living in today, but these days I can walk into just about any non-LDS church and not have my race be an issue. If my leader breaks the law, I can leave the church, and not worry about my family being jeopardized. I don't have to worry about excommunication, and my pastor works more on making sure we're fed spiritually than gaining tithes. In fact, he tells us every sunday not to give what we don't have.
Sorry, but no go.
I know you have trouble living in today, but these days I can walk into just about any non-LDS church and not have my race be an issue. If my leader breaks the law, I can leave the church, and not worry about my family being jeopardized. I don't have to worry about excommunication, and my pastor works more on making sure we're fed spiritually than gaining tithes. In fact, he tells us every sunday not to give what we don't have.
Sorry, but no go.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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_Gazelam
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Scratch
The gospel is not something abstract. Is God abstract or real?
You see no difference between a symbolic salvation and a Literal one? Care to explain that? Is salvation merely a theory to you? Your only theoretically married for time and all eternity?
You theoretically will have endless seed and the blessing of the priesthood enjoyed by those offspring?
You theoretically take upon the name of Christ to remove the name of Adam and the effects of the fall from you?
Is the Melchezidek Priesthood just a theory?
When you seal the Holy Ghost on someone through the priesthood, that's just theoretical too?
Your a coward because you refuse to take a stand. You read your books and claim knowledge of things, but you don't apply that same knowledge.
Whens the last time you applied what you read about Adam? (Moses 5:4) Or Enos (Enos 1:4)
You speak out against the Lords anointed in our time, criticiseing theprophets of your day in how the church operates, while you yourself don't have the fortitude to call down a single scrap of revelation on which to base anything on.
Your a ship lost at sea, with your sails full of hot air blowing all over the place, standing on deck like you know something saying"follow me!", but you haven't got a clue in hell as to where your going. You study the charts of critics and philosophers who claimed to know something, but all you wind up in is a sargaso sea of dead ideas, mired in the rubble and wrecks of their failed notions.
Your religion is that of scholasticism, and you replace the principle of faith with suspicion and doubt.
Apply what youve learned from Moroni and the prophets, and set aside the quandries of men for the teachings of the prophets. Apply a litle faith and call down a revelation so that you have a foundation to operate from. Then your books can do some good. Because right now your a walking talking fulfilment of prophecy:
2 Tim 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Gaz
You see no difference between a symbolic salvation and a Literal one? Care to explain that? Is salvation merely a theory to you? Your only theoretically married for time and all eternity?
You theoretically will have endless seed and the blessing of the priesthood enjoyed by those offspring?
You theoretically take upon the name of Christ to remove the name of Adam and the effects of the fall from you?
Is the Melchezidek Priesthood just a theory?
When you seal the Holy Ghost on someone through the priesthood, that's just theoretical too?
Your a coward because you refuse to take a stand. You read your books and claim knowledge of things, but you don't apply that same knowledge.
Whens the last time you applied what you read about Adam? (Moses 5:4) Or Enos (Enos 1:4)
You speak out against the Lords anointed in our time, criticiseing theprophets of your day in how the church operates, while you yourself don't have the fortitude to call down a single scrap of revelation on which to base anything on.
Your a ship lost at sea, with your sails full of hot air blowing all over the place, standing on deck like you know something saying"follow me!", but you haven't got a clue in hell as to where your going. You study the charts of critics and philosophers who claimed to know something, but all you wind up in is a sargaso sea of dead ideas, mired in the rubble and wrecks of their failed notions.
Your religion is that of scholasticism, and you replace the principle of faith with suspicion and doubt.
Apply what youve learned from Moroni and the prophets, and set aside the quandries of men for the teachings of the prophets. Apply a litle faith and call down a revelation so that you have a foundation to operate from. Then your books can do some good. Because right now your a walking talking fulfilment of prophecy:
2 Tim 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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_Mister Scratch
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Re: Scratch
Gazelam wrote:The gospel is not something abstract. Is God abstract or real?
I fail to see the difference between the two. Care to explain?
You see no difference between a symbolic salvation and a Literal one? Care to explain that? Is salvation merely a theory to you? Your only theoretically married for time and all eternity?
That's not what I said. I said that, in faith-based terms, there is no difference between the literal and the symbolic. In worldly, secular terms, I would agree that there is, but that's not what we are talking about here, so far as I can tell.
You theoretically will have endless seed and the blessing of the priesthood enjoyed by those offspring?
You theoretically take upon the name of Christ to remove the name of Adam and the effects of the fall from you?
LDS believe that man is responsible for his own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
Is the Melchezidek Priesthood just a theory?
A "theory" is something that proposes to explain something about the world. So, I would say, "No, the Melchezidek Priesthood is not 'just a theory'".
When you seal the Holy Ghost on someone through the priesthood, that's just theoretical too?
It is primarily symbolic, in my opinion.
Your a coward because you refuse to take a stand. You read your books and claim knowledge of things, but you don't apply that same knowledge.
How so? What books?
Whens the last time you applied what you read about Adam? (Moses 5:4) Or Enos (Enos 1:4)
You speak out against the Lords anointed in our time, criticiseing theprophets of your day in how the church operates, while you yourself don't have the fortitude to call down a single scrap of revelation on which to base anything on.
Your a ship lost at sea, with your sails full of hot air blowing all over the place, standing on deck like you know something saying"follow me!", but you haven't got a clue in hell as to where your going.
Can you demonstrate, infallibly, that the Brethren have a greater "power of discernment" than anyone else?
You study the charts of critics and philosophers who claimed to know something, but all you wind up in is a sargaso sea of dead ideas, mired in the rubble and wrecks of their failed notions.
You keep talking about "critics" and "philosophers". Who are they? Or are you like Wade, in that you only deal in generalities?
Your religion is that of scholasticism, and you replace the principle of faith with suspicion and doubt.
That is a non sequitur. Faith is hope in the presence of "suspicion and doubt."
Apply what youve learned from Moroni and the prophets, and set aside the quandries of men for the teachings of the prophets. Apply a litle faith and call down a revelation so that you have a foundation to operate from. Then your books can do some good.
What books?
Because right now your a walking talking fulfilment of prophecy:
2 Tim 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Gaz
With all due respect, I disagree.