How far do you have to go?

[_Sam Harris]

How far is too far? In any situation? How many times does a person get to abuse before the line is drawn, and no mere words to be undone at the drop of a hat are good enough?

Coming up, I dealt with a lot of people who could eloquently say they were sorry one moment, give a reason that had nothing to do with them taking full blame for their actions, and then not too much later turn around and re-do what they said sorry for because (ta da) someone drove them to it.

What the heck was the point?

Do people say sorry because they're really repentant or do they say sorry because they want to look good to themselves and others? You know, the sheen of "being the bigger person".

There are a lot of things people want me to say sorry for in life, but I won't because I'm not. If it's the truth that you're acting like an idiot, I'm not going to apologize for telling you the truth. Gee, I'm sorry I saved you from being an addict because I told you crack was whack. Let me recant my statement. Does that make sense?

I once told my dad to stand up, be a man, keep his promise he made to me (long story) and feed his kids. My brother and I were scrounging pennies for a loaf of bread the day I had to tell him this. We were practically begging, the church fed me the last two months Dad was alive. But because of what I said that day, he went crying to mommy, and when he died, it was all of a sudden my fault. Asking a person to take responsibility for their actions led to an infection that raged out of control and took his life. Yeah...makes a lot of sense. But I probably could have avoided the blame and accusations if I had said I'm sorry. But I won't. Why? Because I meant it. HE was wrong, not me. That has nothing to do with love, but everything to do with calling someone to be what they're supposed to be.

Forgive me for not being impressed with the pats on the back here for those who are all of a sudden turning a new leaf in life, but to me truly being sorry means going back over time and balancing out every negative vibe you threw out there if you really feel like doing so. Actions speak louder than words. And the first public apology on this board came from someone who went back and nullified his words in less than a week. Yet...these words are coming from people who think the majority of folks on this board need some form of therapy.

You know, I'm just gonna have to be a bad or the smaller person, because I ain't convinced. But then again, I don't trust most people to begin with.

[_Dr. Shades]

I say give people the benefit of the doubt. For all we know, a sorry-sayer will keep his or her word.

Innocent until proven guilty. Let's not assume the worst about someone until after they've done what you describe above, not before.

Just my $0.02.

[_Sam Harris]

Ok...we'll see.

But I stand by something I once heard. Once a trust is broken, it takes an average of two years of consistent behavior to repair the damage. We aren't in "real life" here so the above time really doesn't apply, but I don't see the fuzzy vibes from our confessional lasting more than a week or two. It didn't the first time.

[_Ray A]

Forgive me for not being impressed with the pats on the back here for those who are all of a sudden turning a new leaf in life, but to me truly being sorry means going back over time and balancing out every negative vibe you threw out there if you really feel like doing so. Actions speak louder than words. And the first public apology on this board came from someone who went back and nullified his words in less than a week. Yet...these words are coming from people who think the majority of folks on this board need some form of therapy.

You know, I'm just gonna have to be a bad or the smaller person, because I ain't convinced. But then again, I don't trust most people to begin with.

Apologies tend to spring from occasional emotional "highs", if you like, but like you I take them with a grain of salt. It's sort of like belching and then saying "pardon me", to which I might ask, "then why did you belch in the first place?" Of course I'm being a bit sarcastic, but this irony has always struck me. We keep doing it and asked to be pardoned, but that doesn't stop us doing it. In 2000 I remember a staunch TBM apologising to everyone on the board, and then saying how much he loved everyone. About two weeks later he launched back into his tirades, and I was his chief target. Reminds me of an old film going back to 1970, Love Story, and the catchphrase was "love means never having to say you're sorry". In other words, if you really love someone, you won't hurt them in the first place.

[_Sam Harris]

Good insight, Ray. I personally try to expel my gasses descreetly, LOL.

As far as saying sorry, I don't often. It's not because I'm a bad person (well, most of the time), it's because by the time I've jumped on your a**, you deserve it. And I've caught hell for that in life. There are times when I knew I was wrong and went back and apologized, two particular shameful events with my mom. Her sin against me wasn't the point, it was the fact that my reaction was so bad. So I said sorry and forgave myself and moved on.

Still, I'm at the point now where if I open my mouth and tell you you're being a fool, I will most likely not take that back. I've spent plenty of time on the wrong side of people's good graces, so I just don't care anymore. It just gets me how you can go from telling everyone they're awful in some way shape or form one day, to apologizing profusely the next. Wouldn't it be better to simply back away quietly, try to establish a pattern of good behavior, and then go and apologize, having your good behavior as proof that you mean business? Ah, in a perfect world. But we don't live in Perfect. That's why there's Walgreens, open 24 hours...

[_Ray A]

Wouldn't it be better to simply back away quietly, try to establish a pattern of good behavior, and then go and apologize, having your good behavior as proof that you mean business? Ah, in a perfect world. But we don't live in Perfect.

This is how it should work. Or to follow up on the apology and demonstrate better behaviour in future. I don't recall making any long-winded apologies on the net, or on forums. I might apologise for misunderstanding something or someone, or try to clarify myself, but I think on forums moods and behaviours are unpredictable. I'd rather someone not apologise, than apologise and then return to abuse.

[_beastie]

Don't worry. If you-know-who falls off the wagon, we will be all over him like flies on s**t.

[_Jersey Girl]

GIMR: Forgive me for not being impressed with the pats on the back here for those who are all of a sudden turning a new leaf in life, but to me truly being sorry means going back over time and balancing out every negative vibe you threw out there if you really feel like doing so. Actions speak louder than words. And the first public apology on this board came from someone who went back and nullified his words in less than a week. Yet...these words are coming from people who think the majority of folks on this board need some form of therapy.

Jersey Girl: But, GIMR, would you allow that for those who are conflict habituated (not me of course! ;) that it takes quite an effort to release oneself from that and that there may be a certain amount of "backsliding" taking place, especially when one's buttons are pushed by others? Your OP began with 2 questions, I'd like to respond.

1. How far do you have to go?

Only as far as you're willing

2. How far is too far?

You decide and then go no further.

It would seem that the "hot stove" approach would be appropriate. If it burns, don't touch it.

[_keene]

How far is too far? In any situation? How many times does a person get to abuse before the line is drawn, and no mere words to be undone at the drop of a hat are good enough?

Coming up, I dealt with a lot of people who could eloquently say they were sorry one moment, give a reason that had nothing to do with them taking full blame for their actions, and then not too much later turn around and re-do what they said sorry for because (ta da) someone drove them to it.

What the heck was the point?

Do people say sorry because they're really repentant or do they say sorry because they want to look good to themselves and others? You know, the sheen of "being the bigger person".

There are a lot of things people want me to say sorry for in life, but I won't because I'm not. If it's the truth that you're acting like an idiot, I'm not going to apologize for telling you the truth. Gee, I'm sorry I saved you from being an addict because I told you crack was whack. Let me recant my statement. Does that make sense?

I once told my dad to stand up, be a man, keep his promise he made to me (long story) and feed his kids. My brother and I were scrounging pennies for a loaf of bread the day I had to tell him this. We were practically begging, the church fed me the last two months Dad was alive. But because of what I said that day, he went crying to mommy, and when he died, it was all of a sudden my fault. Asking a person to take responsibility for their actions led to an infection that raged out of control and took his life. Yeah...makes a lot of sense. But I probably could have avoided the blame and accusations if I had said I'm sorry. But I won't. Why? Because I meant it. HE was wrong, not me. That has nothing to do with love, but everything to do with calling someone to be what they're supposed to be.

Forgive me for not being impressed with the pats on the back here for those who are all of a sudden turning a new leaf in life, but to me truly being sorry means going back over time and balancing out every negative vibe you threw out there if you really feel like doing so. Actions speak louder than words. And the first public apology on this board came from someone who went back and nullified his words in less than a week. Yet...these words are coming from people who think the majority of folks on this board need some form of therapy.

You know, I'm just gonna have to be a bad or the smaller person, because I ain't convinced. But then again, I don't trust most people to begin with.

This is why I have the policy to never accept an apology. At least, not in words. A true apology is a permanent, positive change, and I will not forgive a slight until I see such change happening. But I also have a policy to never ask for reprimands. The past is the past. No, I don't want my money back, but I would like to see you act in a way where I can trust you with my money again.

I also have a policy that if anyone ever asks for help making that permanent, positive change, that I will help them immediately and with the fullness of my ability.

I feel it is very important to make the distiction between "I'm sorry," and "Help me so I never have to be sorry again."

[_harmony]

For me, every day is a new day, a new chance to be the kind of person I want to be (and I never seem to quite make it), a chance to allow everyone else to be the kind of person they want to be. I'm willing to forgive anyone, multiple times, because I am so often in need of forgiveness myself. That doesn't mean I forget what they did to offend me, anymore than I forget what I did to offend them. I can't do better, if I forget what I did wrong. I forgive; I don't forget.

Trust is not the issue. Forgiveness is easy for me to give. Trust is very difficult for me to give.