How far do you have to go?

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

I'm with you GIMR

I tend to be very critical of SORRYS.....it is hard to swallow from some people....I am like you I seldom say I am sorry..I try not to do things I am sorry for...

Wegelund knew he did not need to behave that way on this board but he has..he is an intelligent adult he knows better and know he wants to apologize to us.......since I have been ignoring most of the his crap ...I will ignore his SORRY as well...

Maybe in time he can redeem himself....but we will see

[_wenglund]

How far is too far? In any situation? How many times does a person get to abuse before the line is drawn, and no mere words to be undone at the drop of a hat are good enough?

This is an excellent question, the answer to which I see as depending upon at least two things:

1. The frequency and intensity of the unwanted behaviors (call them "abusive" or whatever). Sometimes the extent of bad or dysfunctional behavior is sufficient to warrant separation--temporary or otherwise, irrespective of apologies. Some people, and some environments, may be too harmful, toxic, and corrosive to be around. Metaphorically speaking, one has little chance of remaining healthy or getting healthy if the well they drink from, or the air they breath, is poisonous. The same is true for human interactions.

I have often wonder, ironically, if that may be the case with some people here in particular and/or this board in general (realizing of course the human tendancy in all of us, to look for guilt in others rather than ourselves, this thread perhaps not excluded). I typically tend to concluded that it is not the case, but to some degree the jury is still out. The best week I have had in a long time was the week that I took off from this board. I am not sure what-all that means in terms of whether it being about me or certain people here or the general atmosphere of the board or combinations thereof, but I intend to continue to explore that question.

2. One's intent and purpose. If one's intent is primarily or exclusively self-protection, then trust can be a significant issue, and it may be in one's interest to dismiss and/or seriously question apologies, and perhaps even separate from the offending or threatening party. However, if one's intent is to improve the human condition (both in terms of self and others), then rewarding good behavior, such as a sincere apology, may be a means of affecting positive change towards that end. I don't know about you all, but I certainly prefer to interact with someone who is able to recognize his/her personal weaknesses, who continues to strive for betterment, and may periodically slip back into bad habits, than someone who frequently behaves badly, lacks the capacity to recognize, let alone accept responsibility for, their bad behavior, and isn't the least bit apologetic, and often is ironically accusatory. At least with the former there is a much better chance of positive change than with the latter.

Interestingly enough, these two intents and purposes (self-protection and improving the human condition) may at times run contrary to each other. If one is, metaphorically speaking, busy building a formitable fortress in one's heart and mind, surrounded by high and thick walls of personal protection, it is a bit difficult, if not impossible, for one to also extend one's hand of friendship and assistance.

Just some thoughts for consideration.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_moksha]

I know GIMR is a big one for actions, and I am still trying to fully understand the implications when she said that being Christian is best defined by actions and not words.

[_harmony]

I know GIMR is a big one for actions, and I am still trying to fully understand the implications when she said that being Christian is best defined by actions and not words.

Kinda puts some teeth into the ol' actions speak louder than words argument.

[_Sam Harris]

Evening All,

I have thoughts in my head, but a cold in my chest. I'll get back to you later this week. Went to new job today, I'm hopeful that it'll work out. I'm just exhausted because of these kids I'm watching and the double schedule. Hope you all (yes that means you too, Wade, I don't have to like you to wish you in good health) are well.

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR: Forgive me for not being impressed with the pats on the back here for those who are all of a sudden turning a new leaf in life, but to me truly being sorry means going back over time and balancing out every negative vibe you threw out there if you really feel like doing so. Actions speak louder than words. And the first public apology on this board came from someone who went back and nullified his words in less than a week. Yet...these words are coming from people who think the majority of folks on this board need some form of therapy.

Jersey Girl: But, GIMR, would you allow that for those who are conflict habituated (not me of course! ;) that it takes quite an effort to release oneself from that and that there may be a certain amount of "backsliding" taking place, especially when one's buttons are pushed by others? Your OP began with 2 questions, I'd like to respond.

1. How far do you have to go?

Only as far as you're willing

2. How far is too far?

You decide and then go no further.

It would seem that the "hot stove" approach would be appropriate. If it burns, don't touch it.

Ah, the wonders of Alka Seltzer Cold, a meal, and some hot tea...

Hey Jersey Girl, I wanted to respond to your post and a few others now that I have a bit of energy. My thing is this: if you're that conflict habituated, there are choices you have made to exacerbate the problem. "Sorry about that" isn't going to erase the damage done to yourself and others. And I personally would look a bit more favorably on backsliding that occured with simply an effort than I would backsliding with constant apologies. To me, at this point the apologies are nothing but excuses. When I was younger, people used to say "my bad" as a half-hearted apology when someone caught them doing something they shouldn't, but something that they ultimately didn't care about the effects of.

To me, it's just shut up and do what you know you should. If you feel that your behavior has been wrong, then make it right. Don't make some big announcement, and if you do have to say you're sorry, go to the individuals you hurt, I'm sure you'd know who they are. Otherwise, just turn a new leaf and do better.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

What I think is the most important thing to remember about forgiveness is that it isn't for the sake of other person, it's for the sake of the forgiver, to bring peace of mind to ourselves. We can't change the other person, and whether the request for forgiveness was heart-felt or not, whether he will change or not, he is in charge of that, not us, but by forgiving him as often as necessary, even though we don't forget his actions, we can forget the aggravation caused by his actions.

Meanwhile, our friend in the little yellow boat will continue to do his level best to change us, bless his sweet little heart.

[Gadianton]

I know GIMR is a big one for actions, and I am still trying to fully understand the implications when she said that being Christian is best defined by actions and not words.

Kinda puts some teeth into the ol' actions speak louder than words argument.

To a point, I agree. And, I believe this principle applies to us all.

Where this principle may break down to some degree, though, is in several ways:

1. Some people, for whatever reason, may incorrectly assume that words, then, are not important. Only actions. For example, I dated a women for over 4 years, and was reticent to say "I love you" to her because I thought the phrase might become too common-place and that over time the phrase would thus loose meaning and significance. I thought it best to let my actions speak louder than words. I learned, though, that not only might my actions not be correctly understood, but the intended meaning of love in my actions perhaps not readily recognized, if at all. I learned that speaking the words "I love you" was also very important. In otherwords, both actions and words are important.

2. Actions may, for whatever reason, be inappropriately held to levels of expectation beyond what is warranted by the accompanying words. For example, a sincere apology that was intended to convey a genuine desire to make improvements in certain behaviors, may be misinerpreted as a commitment to perfect behavior. If the actions don't meet that unreasonable level of expectation, then the apologetic words may then be inappropriately dismissed as not having force or meaning. In other words, alot depends on how the actions are interpreted in relation to the words. If someone says that they are going to try and run the best cross-country race that they can, would the action of their happening to trip a couple of times somehow speak louder than their words?

3. Also, one may, for whatever reason, be unfairly selective in the actions they may choose to judge the words by. Again, if for example, someone says that they are going to try and run the best race that they can, would the action of their happening to trip once or twice, absent fair consideration of the many miles they ran with great heart, speed, and agility, and how the runner may have picked him/herself up each time he or she tripped and continued running, somehow speak louder than their words?

Also, my point went beyond the principle of "actions speaking louder than words" to considering whether certain actions and words may be more beneficial than others. As pointed out, overly protective actions may be disbeneficial to all parties concerned, whether reinforces by, or conflicting with, accompanying words.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

What I think is the most important thing to remember about forgiveness is that it isn't for the sake of other person, it's for the sake of the forgiver, to bring peace of mind to ourselves. We can't change the other person, and whether the request for forgiveness was heart-felt or not, whether he will change or not, he is in charge of that, not us, but by forgiving him as often as necessary, even though we don't forget his actions, we can forget the aggravation caused by his actions.

That is an excellent and self-empowering thought.

I find this notion of forgiveness to be a wonderful sister to the notions of gratitude and the Golden Rule, not only in terms of bringing inner peace, but also in terms of healthy personal and interpersonal development.

Meanwhile, our friend in the little yellow boat will continue to do his level best to change us, bless his sweet little heart.

...understanding, of course, that we are all together in this big boat we call life, and it is in each of our interest for us all to change for the better. May our hearts all be blessed in that way... ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Sam Harris]

How far is too far? In any situation? How many times does a person get to abuse before the line is drawn, and no mere words to be undone at the drop of a hat are good enough?

This is an excellent question, the answer to which I see as depending upon at least two things:

1. The frequency and intensity of the unwanted behaviors (call them "abusive" or whatever). Sometimes the extent of bad or dysfunctional behavior is sufficient to warrant separation--temporary or otherwise, irrespective of apologies. Some people, and some environments, may be too harmful, toxic, and corrosive to be around. Metaphorically speaking, one has little chance of remaining healthy or getting healthy if the well they drink from, or the air they breath, is poisonous. The same is true for human interactions.

Wade, it strikes me that you still don't really see the effects of your "observations" about the mental functions of those who have left the church and/or those who criticize it. The only poison I feel to be here is that of yourself and others on here who insist that anyone who does anything but give a long drawn out testimony is somehow lacking. I disagree with this. And I like what this board is and was before the "therapy" shenanigans that were started here.

I don't need a complete stranger to tell me that I have cognitive distortions. I put myself in therapy at age 14, I KNOW what my problems are. Those problems are partially what kept me from seeing the church for what it is to me. I was eager for acceptance, so I took the bad vibes about myself along with that so-called acceptance. It was healing that took me out the church, so I have a BIG, BIG, BIG problem with someone insinuating that somehow I am lacking because I'm not LDS, or choose not to see everything in the LDS faith as rosy. I've worked too hard just to get up each morning and want to face my day to have some person come and try to sweep all that away because I won't accept his view of God. I never asked you to accept mine, extend the courtesy, please.

The reason why I doubt your "my bad" in particular is because all you have to do is google your name, and you will see a plethora of the same behavior you exhibited here in other places. If indeed you are changing, I would hope that in time you would go clean up the messes you made elsewhere that look alarmingly like the ones made here.

I have often wonder, ironically, if that may be the case with some people here in particular and/or this board in general (realizing of course the human tendancy in all of us, to look for guilt in others rather than ourselves, this thread perhaps not excluded).

I don't think you're truly sorry. You can put all the fancy language you want to on that. It is what it is.

I typically tend to concluded that it is not the case, but to some degree the jury is still out.

And I wait in rapture for your verdict.

The best week I have had in a long time was the week that I took off from this board. I am not sure what-all that means in terms of whether it being about me or certain people here or the general atmosphere of the board or combinations thereof, but I intend to continue to explore that question.

For various reasons, some actually like your presence here. In the end, my wishes will mean nothing. But I will say this: if being online and seeing a world other than your TBM utopia causes you to behave in the way you have here these past few months, if seeing what you see online causes you to be someone you feel you are not truly, then you need to sell your computer...or at least get rid of your internet. Or, possibly exercise some self-control.

Online I am the same person I am in public. Firstly, I write as a means of being. So my words are always true to who I am. But there are as many facets to my writing as there are to me. So people will only see one aspect, and as this is the case in real life, I don't let people's conclusions get to me anymore. Plenty of people call me a b*tch, in fact my mom loves to call me that, though I think we both wear the same size shoe in that regard. I just let it sliked.

2. One's intent and purpose. If one's intent is primarily or exclusively self-protection, then trust can be a significant issue, and it may be in one's interest to dismiss and/or seriously question apologies, and perhaps even separate from the offending or threatening party.

I come from a world of broken promises and half-spoken apologies. I have watched my antagonists die in denial, and I live each day in the midst of those who would have me live a lie. Just a month ago, after having been the sweetest, most productive, most thoughtful employee anyone would want, I was fired from my job for no reason other than my boss's hormones. PMS is a mother, but goodness.

I am each day surrounded by people whose first line of interest is themselves and those who will benefit them. I come across people who are money hungry, who are so insecure that they will volley their complaints about friends off of people they see to be friends, only to reverse the game when the need arises.

I have seen people leave others out in the cold, just because they were in a hurry. Who would scoff at me, a relatively poor person for giving a homeless man five bucks, while they waltz by in their suit and tie. I watch the women in my family blame their kids for their inability to buy a damn condom, and undermine their children's futures, be it consciously or unconsciously.

I have every reason to hold each and every person who comes before me suspect. Prove yourself to be a person of integrity. If you are not, don't be offended when I tell you so. I hold myself to the same standard. You may not see that, but I see it in the guilty looks of those who misuse me. I speak plainly, but if you are wounded and you come to me, I will bind those wounds. I may not do it with a smile, but that's not the point. I do it. THAT IS.

Pontificating so someone can pat you on the back and say "good boy" has never sat well with me. Just be quiet and fix it.

However, if one's intent is to improve the human condition (both in terms of self and others),

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that that was the purpose of your being here. I'm here because I like talking to people.

then rewarding good behavior, such as a sincere apology, may be a means of affecting positive change towards that end.

I'm out of treats. I'll get back to you on payday.

I don't know about you all, but I certainly prefer to interact with someone who is able to recognize his/her personal weaknesses, who continues to strive for betterment, and may periodically slip back into bad habits, than someone who frequently behaves badly, lacks the capacity to recognize, let alone accept responsibility for, their bad behavior, and isn't the least bit apologetic, and often is ironically accusatory. At least with the former there is a much better chance of positive change than with the latter.

And still you think you can see into the heart of everyone here, just because we wouldn't fall in line where you told us to.

Interestingly enough, these two intents and purposes (self-protection and improving the human condition) may at times run contrary to each other. If one is, metaphorically speaking, busy building a formitable fortress in one's heart and mind, surrounded by high and thick walls of personal protection, it is a bit difficult, if not impossible, for one to also extend one's hand of friendship and assistance.


Just some thoughts for consideration.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Sometimes Wade, I wish you would take off the rediculous mask of a therapist and just come as a human in here. You're always trying to tell other people what to do, how to think. Perhaps we don't want or need your advice. Perhaps you would interact better with people, if you stopped coming at them as some person who has all the answers, or even a few that might help them. Including me. You remind me of the worst therapist I ever had, a woman who told me that because my body was whole, my soul should be too, regardless of what my life had been like.

*shakes head*