Questions about BYU

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

maklelan wrote:
harmony wrote:
It will continue to be the largest private university in the country


It certainly will, as long as the members continue to disregard their leaders words. Pres Hinckley long ago instructed the Saints to send their children to state universities close to home, and to participate in the Institute program, and of course the members responded as they always do to direct instructions by the Prophet: they ignored him completely. Since then, we've had to spend more and more tithing dollars to support an education system that is only second rate, because the members refuse to obey.


1. Please provide the source for President Hinckley's statement.


Early 90's, Ensign, look on LDS.org. I don't have time to get you the exact link.

2. Are you actually paying tithing?


Do you want to know the color of my underwear too? What kind of stupid question is that? I'm a temple recommend holding active member, and that's a damned impertinent question to ask.

3. A second rate education system? Are you even dimly aware of the accolades that BYU has recently received?


Are you dimly aware of the US News rankings? BYU is consistently out of the top tier.

4. Please provide documentation for your clam that "the members" have ever "ignored him completely."


Well, since we know more and more applicants are competing for fewer and fewer spots, we can assume that those applicants aren't attending their state universities (and Church Institutes) until after they're turned down for BYU admission.

Are you really that naïve, or do you just have a logic block, whenever someone criticizes your school?

harmony wrote:
and it will ocontinue to be a force for good in the world.[/i]


That is highly debatable. Perhaps you'd be good enough to define "force", "good" and "the world", and then we can determine if BYU is indeed a force for good in the world. Until then, what I see is BYU is synonymous with elitism, a biased atmosphere resulting in an incomplete education, and is simply a marriage mart and baby factory.


Please provide any kind of documentation for this grossly inaccurate caricature. I would love to see where this data comes from.
[/quote]

Please provide your documentation that BYU is a "force" for "good" in "the world".

And you might want to read some stats, like the one that says that Rexburg ID has the highest per capita marriage rate in the country, or the one that says that Provo UT has the highest birth rate in the country. And by all means, read US News. BYU has never cracked the Top 10, and is often in the 2nd tier (50-100). If our elite flagship university cannot even compete with the Top 10, and it often in the middle tier, what does that say about the education we offer? Oh, and let us not forget about the whole stifling atmosphere. You really ought to talk to Patton about what it's like to be a professor in an atmosphere that rejects academic openness.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

It certainly will, as long as the members continue to disregard their leaders words. Pres Hinckley long ago instructed the Saints to send their children to state universities close to home, and to participate in the Institute program, and of course the members responded as they always do to direct instructions by the Prophet: they ignored him completely. Since then, we've had to spend more and more tithing dollars to support an education system that is only second rate, because the members refuse to obey.



I had remembered hearing this as well, although, I can't remember which conference address it was. When I did a search on LDS.org, the only thing I could find was an address he made in the Priesthood session in 2001, but it was regarding an Education Fund for members of the Church in Mexico, South America, and the Phillipeans. I think it would be great if the Church considered a program like this for members in the US. Here is the article:


Now, my brethren, we face another problem in the Church. We have many missionaries, both young men and young women, who are called locally and who serve with honor in Mexico, Central America, South America, the Philippines, and other places. They have very little money, but they make a contribution with what they have. They are largely supported from the General Missionary Fund to which many of you contribute, and for these contributions we are very deeply grateful.

They become excellent missionaries working side by side with elders and sisters sent from the United States and Canada. While in this service they come to know how the Church operates. They develop a broadened understanding of the gospel. They learn to speak some English. They work with faith and devotion. Then comes the day of their release. They return to their homes. Their hopes are high. But many of them have great difficulty finding employment because they have no skills. They sink right back into the pit of poverty from which they came.

Because of limited abilities, they are not likely to become leaders in the Church. They are more likely to find themselves in need of welfare help. They will marry and rear families who will continue in the same cycle that they have known. Their future is bleak indeed. There are some others who have not gone on missions who find themselves in similar circumstances in development of skills to lift them from the ranks of the poor.

In an effort to remedy this situation, we propose a plan—a plan which we believe is inspired by the Lord. The Church is establishing a fund largely from the contributions of faithful Latter-day Saints who have and will contribute for this purpose. We are deeply grateful to them. Based on similar principles to those underlying the Perpetual Emigration Fund, we shall call it the Perpetual Education Fund.

From the earnings of this fund, loans will be made to ambitious young men and women, for the most part returned missionaries, so that they may borrow money to attend school. Then when they qualify for employment, it is anticipated that they will return that which they have borrowed together with a small amount of interest designed as an incentive to repay the loan.

It is expected that they will attend school in their own communities. They can live at home. We have an excellent institute program established in these countries where they can be kept close to the Church. The directors of these institutes are familiar with the educational opportunities in their own cities. Initially, most of these students will attend technical schools where they will learn such things as computer science, refrigeration engineering, and other skills which are in demand and for which they can become qualified. The plan may later be extended to training for the professions.

It is expected that these young men and women will attend institute, where the director can keep track of their progress. Those desiring to participate in the program will make application to the institute director. He will clear them through their local bishops and stake presidents to determine that they are worthy and in need of help. Their names and the prescribed amount of their loans will then be sent to Salt Lake City, where funds will be issued, payable not to the individual but to the institution where they will receive their schooling. There will be no temptation to use the money for other purposes.

We shall have a strong oversight board here in Salt Lake and a director of the program who will be an emeritus General Authority, a man with demonstrated business and technical skills and who has agreed to accept this responsibility as a volunteer.

It entails no new organization, no new personnel except a volunteer director and secretary. It will cost essentially nothing to administer.

We shall begin modestly, commencing this fall. We can envision the time when this program will benefit a very substantial number.

With good employment skills, these young men and women can rise out of the poverty they and generations before them have known. They will better provide for their families. They will serve in the Church and grow in leadership and responsibility. They will repay their loans to make it possible for others to be blessed as they have been blessed. It will become a revolving fund. As faithful members of the Church, they will pay their tithes and offerings, and the Church will be much the stronger for their presence in the areas where they live.

There is an old saying that if you give a man a fish, he will have a meal for a day. But if you teach him how to fish, he will eat for the remainder of his life.

Now, this is a bold initiative, but we believe in the need for it and in the success that it will enjoy. It will be carried forward as an official program of the Church with all that this implies. It will become a blessing to all whose lives it touches—to the young men and women, to their future families, to the Church that will be blessed with their strong local leadership.

It is affordable. We have enough money, already contributed, to fund the initial operation. It will work because it will follow priesthood lines and because it will function on a local basis. It will deal with down-to-earth skills and needed fields of expertise. Participation in the program will carry with it no stigma of any kind, but rather a sense of pride in what is happening. It will not be a welfare effort, commendable as those efforts are, but rather an education opportunity. The beneficiaries will repay the money, and when they do so, they will enjoy a wonderful sense of freedom because they have improved their lives not through a grant or gift, but through borrowing and then repaying. They can hold their heads high in a spirit of independence. The likelihood of their remaining faithful and active throughout their lives will be very high.

We are already carrying forward in limited areas an employment service under the welfare program of the Church. This consists primarily of offices of referral. The matter of education will rest with the Perpetual Education Fund. The operation of employment centers will rest with the welfare program. These employment centers deal with men and women who are seeking employment and have skills, but lack proper referrals. The one is a rotating education fund to make possible the development of skills. The other is the placing of men and women in improved employment who already have some marketable skills.

President Clark used to tell us in these general priesthood meetings that there is nothing that the priesthood cannot accomplish if we will work unitedly together in moving forward a program designed to bless the people (see J. Reuben Clark Jr., in Conference Report, Apr. 1950, 180).

May the Lord grant us vision and understanding to do those things which will help our members not only spiritually but also temporally. We have resting upon us a very serious obligation. President Joseph F. Smith said nearly a hundred years ago that a religion which will not help a man in this life will not likely do much for him in the life to come (see “The Truth about Mormonism,” Out West magazine, Sept. 1905, 242).

Where there is widespread poverty among our people, we must do all we can to help them to lift themselves, to establish their lives upon a foundation of self-reliance that can come of training. Education is the key to opportunity. This training must be done in the areas where they live. It will then be suited to the opportunities of those areas. And it will cost much less in such places than it would if it were done in the United States or Canada or Europe.

Now, this is not an idle dream. We have the resources through the goodness and kindness of wonderful and generous friends. We have the organization. We have the manpower and dedicated servants of the Lord to make it succeed. It is an all-volunteer effort that will cost the Church practically nothing. We pray humbly and gratefully that God will prosper this effort and that it will bring blessings, rich and wonderful, upon the heads of thousands just as its predecessor organization, the Perpetual Emigration Fund, brought untold blessings upon the lives of those who partook of its opportunities.

As I have said, some have already given very substantial amounts to fund the corpus whose earnings will be used to meet the need. But we will need considerably more. We invite others who wish to contribute to do so.

We anticipate there may be some failures in the repayment of loans. But we are confident that most will do what is expected of them, and generations will be blessed. We may anticipate that future generations will also be in need, for as Jesus said, “The poor always ye have with you” (John 12:8). It must, therefore, be a revolving fund.

It is our solemn obligation, it is our certain responsibility, my brethren, to “succor the weak, lift up the hands which hang down, and strengthen the feeble knees” (D&C 81:5). We must help them to become self-reliant and successful.

I believe the Lord does not wish to see His people condemned to live in poverty. I believe He would have the faithful enjoy the good things of the earth. He would have us do these things to help them. And He will bless us as we do so. For the success of this undertaking I humbly pray, while soliciting your interest, your faith, your prayers, your concerns in its behalf. I do so in the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, amen.



I really do remember something specifically being said by President Hinckley about encouraging students to take advantage of the Institute program and staying closer to home, but I don't remember the date of the address. Does anyone have a reference for this? I can't seem to find anything in the Search function on LDS.org.
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

In all fairness - BYU has one of the best accounting programs in the US - it's consistently ranked #2 or #3.

Thankfully, the tens of thousands that I've paid in tithing actually went to good use, as i was able to get one of those highly prized accounting degrees, at an extremely low rate! At the end of the day, I consider myself all square with the church. :)
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

The Utah state schools are making money hand over fist...mainly from Church members who can't get into BYU, but still want to go out west for a BYU-like experience.

Let's face it. The main reason LDS students attend BYU is not because it's a high ranked college. They go for social reasons.

If you want to get married, and you want to marry someone who is of the same faith and has similar goals, where better to meet someone than a large Church-sponsored university?

I don't see why the Church has been so skiddish in just admitting this. One thing that really irritated me when I attended BYU (and yes...I'm old...I'm 42...so this was back in 1982-86), they were really focussed on making BYU the "Harvard of the West". Why?

Why not call a spade a spade?

Most people meet who they are going to marry in college. I met my husband at the Y.

There is nothing wrong with "admitting" you're going to school to not only get an education, but meet someone like-minded.
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Post by _maklelan »

Bond...James Bond wrote:
maklelan wrote:
It's a private university, and it can do what it pleases, irrepsective of your ideas about how a university should operate. It will continue to be the largest private university in the country and it will ocontinue to be a force for good in the world.[/i]


Who decides if a school is a force for good (or evil)?

Aren't all schools just that, schools, focused on educating people? The quality of the education based on the difficulty of the classes can be questioned and haggled over, but talking about a university in terms of good (or evil) or whatever seems to be an attempt to grab the moral "Right" for the religion that sponsers the University.

Are there any schools that are a force for evil? Bob Jones? Notre Dame? Southern Methodist University?

Bond


you have to be pretty dogmatic to find any institution for higher education (that is accredited) anything but good.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Post by _maklelan »

liz3564 wrote:The Utah state schools are making money hand over fist...mainly from Church members who can't get into BYU, but still want to go out west for a BYU-like experience.

Let's face it. The main reason LDS students attend BYU is not because it's a high ranked college. They go for social reasons.

If you want to get married, and you want to marry someone who is of the same faith and has similar goals, where better to meet someone than a large Church-sponsored university?

I don't see why the Church has been so skiddish in just admitting this. One thing that really irritated me when I attended BYU (and yes...I'm old...I'm 42...so this was back in 1982-86), they were really focussed on making BYU the "Harvard of the West". Why?

Why not call a spade a spade?

Most people meet who they are going to marry in college. I met my husband at the Y.

There is nothing wrong with "admitting" you're going to school to not only get an education, but meet someone like-minded.


This is a very common stereotype, and I'm sure that many people have this same experience, but every girl I've ever talked to (I can't say either way about the guys) has hated being judged in that light. My wife specifically did not want to get married while at school.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Post by _maklelan »

harmony wrote:Do you want to know the color of my underwear too? What kind of stupid question is that? I'm a temple recommend holding active member, and that's a damned impertinent question to ask.


If you really have a temple recommend then I already know what color your underwear is. I doubt that's true, though, as most of what you have said to me has been false, and you use language in the above post that is very unbecoming of a temple recommend holding member of the church. That and you have ceaselessly praised every single person who has bashed the church since I've arrived.

harmony wrote:Are you dimly aware of the US News rankings? BYU is consistently out of the top tier.


There is no seperation of "tiers" in the U.S. News rankings.

harmony wrote:Well, since we know more and more applicants are competing for fewer and fewer spots, we can assume that those applicants aren't attending their state universities (and Church Institutes) until after they're turned down for BYU admission.


Fewer and fewer spots? The school is growing, not shrinking.

harmony wrote:Are you really that naïve, or do you just have a logic block, whenever someone criticizes your school?


Neither.

harmony wrote:Please provide your documentation that BYU is a "force" for "good" in "the world".


I asked first.

harmony wrote:And you might want to read some stats, like the one that says that Rexburg ID has the highest per capita marriage rate in the country, or the one that says that Provo UT has the highest birth rate in the country. And by all means, read US News. BYU has never cracked the Top 10, and is often in the 2nd tier (50-100). If our elite flagship university cannot even compete with the Top 10, and it often in the middle tier, what does that say about the education we offer? Oh, and let us not forget about the whole stifling atmosphere. You really ought to talk to Patton about what it's like to be a professor in an atmosphere that rejects academic openness.


You really think we have only ten good universities in the US? What schools did you go to?
I like you Betty...

My blog
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

This is a very common stereotype, and I'm sure that many people have this same experience, but every girl I've ever talked to (I can't say either way about the guys) has hated being judged in that light. My wife specifically did not want to get married while at school.



Is it really a matter of judging, though? I'm not saying that you should go to BYU, or anywhere else, for that matter, just to meet someone. I'm a college instructor, myself, so I'm all about Higher Education. But, I think that the majority of students who attend BYU are kidding themselves, if they say they are going there strictly because of it's educational reputation. There are plenty of other universities that have just as rigorous an admissions policy, and are considered more "Ivy League" by the world's standards. Obviously, things worked for you. You met your wife there. (I'm assuming you're still a student, since you mentioned you were going to history class. ;) ) And, even though your wife may have finished school before marrying you, the point is, she met you at the Y.
_maklelan
_Emeritus
Posts: 4999
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:51 am

Post by _maklelan »

liz3564 wrote:
This is a very common stereotype, and I'm sure that many people have this same experience, but every girl I've ever talked to (I can't say either way about the guys) has hated being judged in that light. My wife specifically did not want to get married while at school.



Is it really a matter of judging, though? I'm not saying that you should go to BYU, or anywhere else, for that matter, just to meet someone. I'm a college instructor, myself, so I'm all about Higher Education. But, I think that the majority of students who attend BYU are kidding themselves, if they say they are going there strictly because of it's educational reputation. There are plenty of other universities that have just as rigorous an admissions policy, and are considered more "Ivy League" by the world's standards. Obviously, things worked for you. You met your wife there. (I'm assuming you're still a student, since you mentioned you were going to history class. ;) ) And, even though your wife may have finished school before marrying you, the point is, she met you at the Y.


But deriving from the fact that we got married at BYU the idea that our intentions were to do so is fallacious. Mormons get married relatively young, and young people are often at college. This doesn't mean their intentions of going to BYU are to get married.
I like you Betty...

My blog
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

maklelan wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
This is a very common stereotype, and I'm sure that many people have this same experience, but every girl I've ever talked to (I can't say either way about the guys) has hated being judged in that light. My wife specifically did not want to get married while at school.



Is it really a matter of judging, though? I'm not saying that you should go to BYU, or anywhere else, for that matter, just to meet someone. I'm a college instructor, myself, so I'm all about Higher Education. But, I think that the majority of students who attend BYU are kidding themselves, if they say they are going there strictly because of it's educational reputation. There are plenty of other universities that have just as rigorous an admissions policy, and are considered more "Ivy League" by the world's standards. Obviously, things worked for you. You met your wife there. (I'm assuming you're still a student, since you mentioned you were going to history class. ;) ) And, even though your wife may have finished school before marrying you, the point is, she met you at the Y.


But deriving from the fact that we got married at BYU the idea that our intentions were to do so is fallacious. Mormons get married relatively young, and young people are often at college. This doesn't mean their intentions of going to BYU are to get married.


Let's try to separate BYU into it's list of parts, and why people go there.

BYU-Idaho: judging by the per capita marriage rate for Rexburg ID, they go there mainly to get married.

BYU-Provo: judging by the per capita birth rate for Provo UT, they go there to have babies (or maybe so many of them transfer from BYU-Idaho after they get married that it skews the numbers).

BYU-Hawaii: judging by the proximity of the beach, they go there to have fun.

Now, what about the academics?

Well, at BYU-Idaho, Ag is a big deal. It's not known for much else, though. An Art degree will get you a job at the mall selling clothes, though.

BYU-Provo is definitely better known. The business dept is world-class, as are some engineering schools. However, the Social Sciences departments are laughers (maybe they'd improve if they could get Dr Mauss to come out of retirement and get rid of the guy who refused to teach about Freud). The education dept isn't anything to write home about, but the Foreign Languages is generally top-drawer. A mixed bag, for sure.

BYU-Hawaii? Hmmm... Surfing 101?

Of course, this is coming from a person who has limited if any use for BYU, no matter what campus.
Post Reply