Muslims and peace...

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Richardlionhart wrote:I would like to see Mecca and Medina flattened, but in a way as to minimize casualties.

This would break the back of the religion, in my opinion.

I also said would like to see Muslims expelled historically Christian lands.

I think this would do something to stop the blood thristy terrorist monkeys.


Well, you've convinced me. You and Kevin present a credible position.

P
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Richardlionhart wrote:I would like to see Mecca and Medina flattened, but in a way as to minimize casualties.

This would break the back of the religion, in my opinion.


Mecca and Medina are home to our allies. Minimize causualties? As in force march everyone into the desert and then napalm the place? Are you serious?

And this would just really, really, really, really....really, really, really piss the Muslims off. It wouldn't end Islamic terrorism, it would be like giving it a steroid booster shot.

I also said would like to see Muslims expelled historically Christian lands.


What historically Christian lands?

I think this would do something to stop the blood thristy terrorist monkeys.


No it wouldn't stop them. It would just intensify their Jihad.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

"Blessed are peace-makers..." Hi TD, you'r doin' good!! You too Bond :-) Fear mongers we've always had. Unfortunately they flow because of minds set in hate and fear. To their benefit they have a ready market of stupidity made so by a culture that has evolved from Old Testament prejudices, hate and genocide. Religious some might profess to be. So be it. Christians they are not! Ya just can't escape the honesty of the fruits they display...

I too have friends in the Moslem faith, as i have in the Christian faith, and in no religious faith. Since i choose my friends wisely they all abide the same ethics and sense of morality. Many proclaiming faiths, of whatever type, i wouldn't be comfortable with. Nor would they be comfortable with me.

It is, however, awesome to learn the substaniated positions folks can take at either end of an issue such as this. Makes one very wary of the driving spirit behind the differing positions. Buyer beware!

Sam Harris is mentioned as one who has theorized some of our escaping religious fundamentalism as we adapt to sensible secularism. The hope of the future is education displacing indoctrination in any extremist group, Christian or Moslem. I think honest education, and socializing beyond our walls, is working. Warm regards, Roger
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

for what it's worth, from today's online news in Oz:


Cleric's jihad call 'reprehensible'


January 18, 2007 01:02pm

THE Federal Government today denounced an Australian-born Muslim cleric for calling Jews pigs and urging children to die for Allah.

Firebrand Sheik Feiz Mohammed, head of the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Liverpool, delivered the hateful rants on a collection of DVDs called the Death Series being sold in Australia and overseas.

"Today many parents, they prevent their children from attending lessons. Why? They fear that they might create a place in the their hearts, the love, just a bit of the love, of sacrificing their lives for Allah," Sheik Feiz says in the video.

"We want to have children and offer them as soldiers defending Islam. Teach them this: There is nothing more beloved to me than wanting to die as a mujahid (holy warrior). Put in their soft, tender hearts the zeal of jihad and a love of martyrdom."

Acting Attorney-General Kevin Andrews said the situation was unacceptable.

"The Australian Government denounces these reprehensible and offensive remarks," he said in Adelaide.

"We particularly denounce the outrageous comments made about the Jewish community in Australia."

An Australian citizen born in Sydney who has spent the past year living in Lebanon, Sheik Feiz was exposed this week in a British documentary Undercover Mosque.

Investigators found Sheik Feiz's DVDs being sold by children in the carpark of the Green Lane Mosque in Birmingham and other Islamic bookshops. The entire set can be bought online for $150.

"The peak, the pinnacle, the crest, the highest point, the pivot, the summit of Islam is jihad," he declares in the film, before denouncing "kaffirs" (non-Muslims).

"Kaffir is the worst word ever written, a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt."


In an excerpt from a video lecture series called Signs of the Hour, Sheik Feiz then ridicules Jews as pigs.

Sheik Feiz - who just two weeks ago said he felt like an "alien" in his own country - leads about 4000 followers through his Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney's southwest.

He also accused Australian authorities of being over-zealous in their approach to clerics like him.

"There are no sheiks preaching chaos there. No one is telling people to raise arms against the Australian community," he said.

Sheik Feiz left for Lebanon just before the arrest of 23 men in Sydney and Melbourne in November 2005.

Public response

Mr Andrews would not say whether Sheik Feiz would be welcomed to return to Australia.

"It's disturbing that this man is the head of a global youth Islamic organisation," Mr Andrews said.

"All good-minded people, regardless of their religious beliefs or faith or none, I believe, would find these comments to be reprehensible and offensive - that is certainly the view of the Australian Government."

Community Relations Commission chairman Stepan Kerkyasharian has called for the sheik to be charged over his comments.

"The public prosecutor, the federal prosecutor should really have a close look at what is being conveyed by this guy and whether it is in breach of any laws and he should be charged," Mr Kerkyasharian told Macquarie Radio.

NSW Jewish Board of Deputies chief executive Vic Alhadeff said the sheik should not abuse his position to incite hatred.

"It is of great concern when people in positions of influence, who should be demonstrating responsible leadership, abuse that power to incite racial hatred," Mr Alhadeff said.

"As a Jewish community, we work well and closely with moderate sectors of the Muslim community.

"Hate speech such as these remarks by Sheik Mohammed has no place in Australian society and must be vigorously condemned by all."

With The Daily Telegraph and AAP


Hopefully the voices of reason will prevail, but this kind of rhetoric is very disturbing, fanatical, and all in the name of God. This zealot really believes he's "serving Allah".

Image
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Thanks Ray, you say:
Hopefully the voices of reason will prevail, but this kind of rhetoric is very disturbing, fanatical, and all in the name of God. This zealot really believes he's "serving Allah".


Can the "voice of reason" not prevail (eventually)? Irrational rants seed their own demise when they become public. They have their moments of fame/notoriety then obscurity.

However, that they can find kindred spirits should alarm us, not so much of them but, of the social environment in which such hate foments. In that we have some responsibility to advocate a Just-society that does not spawn such malice.

That has always been the tough challenge, to be proactive in remedies. Seems easier to be reactive and engage in violence to make peace. Football mentality...

Maybe future generations will see the stupidity of their ancestors? For their sake we can hope so. Warm regards, Roger
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Maybe it is just me but...

Here we have the Muslim terrorist who want to destroy those who they think are evil....

And, we have those Americans who want to destroy those who they think are evil...

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

~dancer~

Roger... could we hire you to teach the world about peace? PLEASE!!! :-)
_Roger Morrison
_Emeritus
Posts: 1831
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:13 am

Post by _Roger Morrison »

truth dancer wrote:Maybe it is just me but...

Here we have the Muslim terrorist who want to destroy those who they think are evil....

And, we have those Americans who want to destroy those who they think are evil...

Am I the only one who sees a problem with this?

~dancer~

Roger... could we hire you to teach the world about peace? PLEASE!!! :-)


NO! NO! NO! It isn't just You TD! It is every thinking, feeling intelligent being in our Universe! To share peace-making sentiments with You, and Those is a distinct, and absolute honour.

Unfortunately, Sectarianism, Nationalism and Patriotism are deep rooted falasies upon which imagined-honour has deceptively been based. It is this greed and ego driven social model that Jesus attempted to displace with his "Two New Commandments".

I respectfully suggest IF there is anything worth its print in the book some profess to be 'God's Word' it is the admonition to "...love "God" and your neighbor, who just might be you enemy--that not withstanding--learn to love each other anyway."

Seems the Christian challenge is to get so called Christian folks to believe Jesus! They'd rather believe anyone but the one who taught "love over cometh all." Anyway... Criticism without some attempt at its being constructive is just venting.

So, how about each who feels strongly about Jesus, and this issue, make an appointment with their Pastor, Minister, Bishop, or whomever presides in the church of their choice and discuss this basic premise of "love-yer-enemies". Make it personal, one on one, face to face. It cannot hurt, and it just might... Warm regards, Roger
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

Hey guys, I just got from Rio de Janeiro and it was fabulous. I will post photos tomorrow when my wife returns. She took the camera with all the photos with her on her trip today before I could save them on the pc.

Truth Dancer,

There are no "authorities" in Islam. There may be self proclaimed, vocal, out of control guys who want to think they have some sort of leadership but this is not a part of the teachings of Islam.


You are wrong TD. You need to extend your studies beyond that of what some western influenced Muslims tell you. Your repeated claims that there are as many versions of Islam as there are Muslims is equally wrong. Anyone who has studied religions can say Islam is far more united in belief and practice than Christians and Jews. There simply isn’t any wiggle room for Muslims to comfortably maneuver with their attempts to mesh Islam with Western sentiments. Few have tried and those are the few you keep referring to – the few. These people would be kicked out of Muslim majority societies if they expressed their views openly. Only in the West can they do this, but not always can they do it safely, even over here.

I already said there is no supreme authority as there is in Catholicism, but this doesn’t mean there are no authorities in Islam at all. Again, you even conceded the point that your friends go to the Imams who are by definition, authorities. If they weren’t authorities then why would anyone bother with them? Here is an excerpt from Daniel Peterson:
When Muhammad died rather suddenly and unexpectedly, the senior Muslim leadership scrambled to improvise an institution—the caliphate—that would provide a ruler for the still-growing Islamic state, which, by the Prophet’s death, covered virtually all of the Arabian Peninsula and which would, within a century, extend from Spain to the borders of India.
Very soon, however, the caliph lost much of his religious authority (though not his political power) to intellectuals, and particularly to legal theorists. On the basis of the Qur’an, heavily supplemented by precedents gathered from the hadith [ha-DEETH] (reports of what Muhammad and his immediate associates said and did), these thinkers elaborated a very subtle and sophisticated body of law that came to be known as the shari‘a (sha-REE-ah). Then, roughly three centuries after Muhammad’s death, the “gate of interpretation” of the shari’a was declared closed. Islamic law was set, so it was announced, for all time. http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/040705iraq.html


When Osama bin Ladin spoke of the humiliation of Islam over the past 80 years, he was referring to the collapse of the most recent Caliphate. Islamic authority has completely been given over to the scholars ever since. The scholars at Al Azhar University represent some of the highest authorities in Sunni Islam. But just because the Caliph doesn’t exist, does not change the fact that Islamic law states that Muslims are obligated to wage jihad, even if there is no Caliphate. People that insist there is no authority in Islam except for the Quran, are trying to pull one over on you. Their agenda is to free “Islam” from any blame from terrorism or any other Muslim related atrocity.

James Bond,
Almost all organized religions breed hate and bigotry because they are naturally exclusive and marginalize anyone who doesn't follow that religion. Christianity is the same way, and it always leads to the same thing, wars of religion


This is demonstrably false, and is a symptom of the multicultural relativism that has gone rampant in the West. Christianity can hardly be said to be “just like” Islam in its capacity to “breed” terrorism as has Islam.

Oh yes. trust the person who uses the phrase "unwashed brown person" to know who is and who isn't racist. I may sing "I Am Woman Hear Me Roar" but it doesn't mean I don't have a "Y" chromosome.


That phrase was never used by Daniel Pipes. You should read what was actually said in the article, along with the asterisk comment.

Well I won't hold my breath waiting for the 1 billion Muslims on the planet to kill the 5 billion non-Muslims. Muslims are not taking the world tomorrow. That is reality.


You are right of course. It might take another century, but if things do not change, they are on that path.

Plutarch,
Israel receives more foreign aid than any country in the world.


And it has used it well too, unlike other countries who receive it.

Indeed, foreign aid to Israel consists of 30% of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget. Foreign aid ranges from $3 to $5 billion a year.


This doesn’t add up since Egypt receives around 2 billion per year. They have been receiving money from the US since 1948 to keep them from attacking Israel. So if the Foreign aid doesn’t exceed five billion then Egypt receives 40% at least. Get your facts straight. The 3-5 billion refers to aid given in the Middle-East alone. In FY2005:

Consistent with previous years, Egypt and Israel will receive the bulk of U.S. aid to the Middle East -- more than $4.4 billion -- as follow-on support for the Camp David accords of 1978 that resulted in a peace treaty between the two countries. Egypt will receive $1.3 billion in military assistance and $535 million in economic support. A portion of the economic support funds is tied to Egypt's attainment of significant domestic economic reforms, beyond what it achieved in prior years. http://usinfo.state.gov/mena/Archive/20 ... 06545.html


Why don’t we also “shock” the taxpayers by letting them in on the fact that Egypt is entirely anti-American, supports America in virtually nothing when their support is sought after, it helps breed Islamic terrorism, and yet we have been consistently giving this country around $2 billion/year. It is also worth noting that Israel’s two billion in military aid, much of it is guaranteed to be done in purchasing American made arms. Palestinians receive enough money that if spent wisely, could bolster their own economy and rag their children from illiteracy. Instead their main desire is the destruction of Israel and the money goes sending their children on bombing runs.

Aid-wise, residents of the West Bank and Gaza have hardly been neglected until now. They receive about $300 per person, making them, per capita, the world’s greatest beneficiaries of foreign aid. Strangely, their efforts to destroy Israel have not inspired efforts to crush this hideous ambition but rather to subsidize it. Money being fungible, foreign aid effectively funds the Palestinians’ bellicose propaganda machine, their arsenal, their army, and their suicide bombers.

This, however, does not faze international aid types. Nigel Roberts, the World Bank’s director for the West Bank and Gaza, blows off past failures. Addressing himself to donors, he says, “Maybe your $1 billion a year hasn’t produced much, but we think there’s a case for doing even more in the next three or four years.”

Roberts is saying, in effect: Yes, your money enabled Arafat’s corruption, jihad ideology, and suicide factories, but those are yesterday’s problems; now, let’s hope the new leadership uses donations for better purposes. Please lavish more funds on it to enhance its prestige and power, then hope for the best.

This la-la-land thinking ignores two wee problems. One concerns the Palestinians’ widespread intent to destroy Israel, as shown by the outpouring of grief for arch-terrorist Arafat at his funeral, the consistent results of opinion research, and the steady supply of would-be jihadists. The Palestinians’ discovery of their inner moderation, to put it mildly, has yet to commence. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=16383


You continue to rant…

But, it is U.S. money that props up this university system. A stone’s throw to the Palestinian refugee camps, or a missile throw to Ethiopia, show a huge disparity in the standards of living between U.S.-supported Israel and other states which receive miniscule relief moneys.


So what? Do you have some kind of point here? Israel is the only country on the brink of war. It was attacked by numerous Arab countries shortly after its creation and this war is inevitable because of the Islamic hate towards the Jew; much of the attention by US politicians has been to thwart that war from occurring during their administration, and practically all they know how to do is give money.

Yet, Israel conducts espionage operations against the U.S. military. To his credit, President Clinton resisted strong-arm tactics from the Israeli government to pardon convicted spy and U.S. citizen Jonathan Pollard.


And? You think there are not US espionage operations in Israel? Give us a break. This is standard fare in international intelligence. Tell me when Israel funds a terrorist group to kill Americans, and then we’ll have something to be concerned about.

You curiously state that the Crusades were a defense of Christianity and the atrocities were not directed by the Popes. I beg to differ.


Of course you do, but you cannot appeal to education and information.

When a leader of the Crusader army asked Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury how to distinguish the enemy from other citizens, the latter responded with a famous quote: “Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" — "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his.”


You mean the famous statement that may be spurious? The statement that still doesn’t come from the Pope, and the statement that implied killing other Catholics and not “citizens”?

“There is little to authenticate Arnaud's reportedly infamous command to the crusaders at Beziers in July of 1209 to "Kill them all. God will know his own." No source of the time actually records his saying this.” http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/arnaudamaury.html

Now, do you have anything to counter the fact that the Crusades were a defensive maneuver against centuries of Islamic conquests?

You claim that the Arabs have desecrated Christian shrines. I do not dispute that. Yet, the Arabs permitted public Christian worship before the Crusades.


The Arabs? Were they Muslim Arabs? Christians and Jews were not permitted to worship in public when living under Islamic rule; this was an Islamic edict established in the Pact of Umar, and has been the guideline for most Muslim rulers ever since. Among many other humiliating circumstances, conquered Jews and Christians had to agree that, “We shall not manifest our religion publicly.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar

The Arabs and their Ishmaelite predecessors have occupied Palestine long before the Jews. For a balanced, humanist, view of the way Christians have Arabs over the years, I would invite you to read the Durants’ Civilization discussion of the Arab conquest and the Crusades.


If you are relying on Will Durant then no wonder you’re making ignorant statements. I recommend you educate yourself with the latest scholarship has uncovered: Thomas F. Madden “The New Concise History of the Crusades,” and Jonathan Riley-Smith “The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades.” Regarding the propaganda against Israel I recommend - http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf
_Bond...James Bond
_Emeritus
Posts: 4627
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

dartagnan wrote:
Almost all organized religions breed hate and bigotry because they are naturally exclusive and marginalize anyone who doesn't follow that religion. Christianity is the same way, and it always leads to the same thing, wars of religion


This is demonstrably false, and is a symptom of the multicultural relativism that has gone rampant in the West. Christianity can hardly be said to be “just like” Islam in its capacity to “breed” terrorism as has Islam.


I think that multiculturalism/moral relativism is the reason that Christianity has lost much of its teeth, because its mostly hit in Christian areas (i.e. Europe and America). All the zealots stopped being zealots, and stopped killing each other over frivalous things like religion.

You can't tell me Christianity doesn't have a certain history of marginializing different beliefs with the history of wars between Catholic and Protestant, the various Inquisitions, etc etc. Christians aren't as stupid as Muslims cause they don't believe in suicide-bombing (what a waste of a good fanatic!!!!) but Christians still do things like bombing abortion clinics and such for their beliefs.

Would you prefer if I said Christianity breeds robbers and thiefs then. What about the sack of Constantinople in 1204 had anything to do with protecting the Holy Land? The Crusades were are a slash and grab operation (at least for the leaders of the army). They may have had some thought of "saving their souls" but the whole "automatic ticket to heaven" deal was for the peasants carrying spears.

Oh yes. trust the person who uses the phrase "unwashed brown person" to know who is and who isn't racist. I may sing "I Am Woman Hear Me Roar" but it doesn't mean I don't have a "Y" chromosome.


That phrase was never used by Daniel Pipes. You should read what was actually said in the article, along with the asterisk comment.


I wasn't quoting Pipes. I was quoting that knucklehead Richard who used the phrase. Perhaps I should have said, "Oh yes, trust Richard, user of phrases such as "unwashed brown person" and "blood thirsty terrorist monkeys" to know what a racist is. Just cause a person says one thing doesn't mean they aren't another..rest of my post.."

Well I won't hold my breath waiting for the 1 billion Muslims on the planet to kill the 5 billion non-Muslims. Muslims are not taking the world tomorrow. That is reality.

You are right of course. It might take another century, but if things do not change, they are on that path.


I won't be alive in another century, so it doesn't particularly matter to me. If it happens, I'm sure the Christian people will see it coming and will mount a good offensive. They have a history of it, after all.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

g
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply