The Mormon God and Conditional Love

[_Yoda]

I hope that Infymus doesn't mind, but I borrowed a quote from the "Tanner is Burning in Hell" thread on the Telestial Forum to springboard a new topic:

"Since the Mormon Jesus’ plan is a plan of compulsion – every knee shall bow and accept he is God, therefore none of us have a choice, even if we reject it all to the last day. No free agency, no decision made on our parts – we are forced to accept and obey. "


Wow, you must really hate gravity then, you know, being this confineing law that holds you down and all. Do you go outside and look up and the sun and scream alot? "Curse you! Damn you , you bringer of confineing gravity ! If it werent for you, I could fly!!"

Post something else, you make me laugh.

Is that all you have Gazelam? Suddenly I hate gravity because I hate the Mormon Plan Of Imprisonment? Typical Mormon. “I have nothing to add, so I will – change the subject!” Is what I wrote too difficult for you to comprehend? I know that Mormonism teaches you not to think about things too seriously, so I will try and explain it a little for you.

You don’t care that the POS™ is flawed – because I’m very sure that somewhere deep inside you – you hope that you are going to make it to the top – as long as you keep paying, praying and obeying. Of course, you better hope that Joseph Smith accepts you, hope that you remember your secret handshake, secret new name, secret passwords – providing you have paid enough money to get into the temple and the maintain paying money for the rest of your life. Even if you make it that far, you will of course be assigned no less than 3 wives because to become a God, you have to be polygamous. And still, you’re at the whim of both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. If you have at all strived for individuality during your lifetime - you will be rejected.

Mormonism offers no alternate plan to the POS™, no back door, no way out. Either you follow the Mormon God, or the Mormon God is going to place you in a prison cell. That prison cell may be adorned with flowers and sunshine, and vast tracks of land – but in the end, after millions of years – it will still be a prison.

The Mormon God is nothing more than a cruel warden.

It is interesting that Mormons who are enthralled in the cult cannot see the POS™ for what it truly is. You Mormons always get side tracked into mental gymnastics when faced with actually “thinking” about your own doctrine. You confuse the true meaning of Agency. You obscure the truth behind the POS™ and when you cannot mentally explain it, stoop to “all will be revealed after death” line of b***s*** reasoning – and the one I hated the most, “You choose this plan before you were born” crap.

Mormon POS™ has only two choices. Either accept and obey, or reject and be punished. There is no third choice. There is no walking out the door. You shall bow before the Mormon God and give him your ultimate obedience – or you will be punished. There is no "otherwise". It is not a consequence-determined event. It is black and it is white. And Mormons call that “choice”, they call that “agency”. In the Mormon Universe™, the only thing that exists is Mormonism and the Mormon POS™. Why would you want anything else?

The spirit prison and the plan of salvation is akin to this. There is no choice. Mormons state that the choice is that you would stay in that prison until judgment time - in which you will be forced to bend knee and worship God. And then you will be placed in a kingdom - definitely not the Celestial Kingdom - but some other kingdom that is "set aside for that which is filthy" because the Kingdom of God is not filthy. No, it is full of those with no mind of their own, no choice of their own – no individuality.

All three kingdoms of heaven in Mormonism - if we look at the universe as a whole, as an expansive place that has infinite expansion capabilities, and we place each eternity to eternity into a "bubble" as we would call it, we would look out and find an infinite number of bubbles for each eternity to eternity that has existed for which god has raised children to salvation and those children have gone on to be god's themselves and continued the cycle. Each bubble expands to fill the proportion of space and time that is necessary in order to carry out the plans that are necessary to raise spiritual children from stage to stage wherein they would come to a created earth, get a body, and move onto further stages.

What we would find if we examined this closely, is that we would find an infinite number of 1st and 2nd degree kingdoms full of those persons who did not transpire to the level of the Celestial kingdom for which they could continue on as god's themselves. Therefore we would find a number of souls that could not be calculated in numbers that are in states of prisons where they cannot move from kingdom to kingdom. This is an awful state. Mormonism accepts this state because they claim either these people merited this state of existence, or, these people were complacent and they choose to be in these kingdoms for all time and eternity - not just one bubble of eternity but all bubbles of eternity henceforth and forever. I am not even taking into account the number tossed away into Outer Darkness – and who knows how many times that has happened during the course of one eternity to eternity.

It is an atrocious fact that the Mormon God creates prisons in order to house those who are in disagreement with him. Because a person, who God claims is a son or daughter, a literal offspring of God, does not agree with God, that God locks that son or daughter away forever and ever. He claims that where he is, they cannot come. This flies in the face of reason and love and the statement that God has unconditional love.

No, the Mormon god is conditional - conditional that you fully obey him. That you turn off reason, you turn off choice, you turn off your individual self and become nothing more than a mindless follower who will always pay, pray and obey.

Agency, is an illusion created by those with power. Mormonism creates the illusion of free agency but further research and analysis points otherwise.

The POS™ is nothing more than a carefully crafted deception where the Mormon God casts his children into eternal prisons.

As I said, I would rather stand in front of the Mormon God and slit my throat than follow him in any way – shape – or form.

Although I am a faithful member of the Church, I honestly do share some of Infymus' concerns, and have struggled with some of these concepts. The "house of order, house of God" concept just doesn't fly with me in all of these circumstances.

As a parent, it is unfathomable for me to think that God would punish his children for doing their best. The Mormon culture is one where you never feel like you quite measure up. You are always feeling guilty for not being at the top of your game all the time. Life happens. People get upset. They struggle. And yet, even though we preach that it is important to be understanding and helpful to our fellow man, there is still a superiority complex which seems to exist when someone else is going through a trial other than you. More often than not, false sympathy and judgementalism seems to get in the way of real service and empathy toward each other.

If I have really done my best to live a moral life, but I have still made mistakes, according to Mormon theology, I will lose my husband and children and be relegated to a "lower kingdom" where I will be single forever and ever.

It just doesn't seem right to me. This is a large piece of doctrine that I struggle with.

Thoughts?

[_harmony]

At the risk of being told I have a childlike faith... I have a childlike faith. I also have no desire to be a goddess. After having been a mother in this life, I have no desire to have all that responsibility. I want to be an angel, whipping around on the wind, riding a drop of rain, playing in the outfield. Okay... enough fantasy for one day.

Some comments:

1. Our children will be adults in the CK. We'll all be adults. We'll all be sealed to each other. Actually, I think either the CK will be quite full (and virtually everyone who wants to be there will be there), or it will be almost empty (because virtually no one will qualify).

2. The Atonement is for everyone. Death has no sting, the grave cannot hold us, we will be resurrected.

3. We get what we earn, as far as our kingdom is concerned. Why would we think God would give us something we didn't earn? Why would we want it?

4. Live a good life, do your best to be a good mom, a good wife, a good person. No one can fault you for doing that. You don't have to be Mother Theresa. Just being Lady Liz, trying to the best person she can be, is good enough. The Atonement covers the rest. And if this life is all there is, well... you did it your way. It don't get any better than that.

[_Gazelam]

Well said Harmony. For the most part.

The gospel is there to teach us the culture of God. that's all the gospel is, looking beyond this and freaking out of infintesimal points of doctrine does obscure this for some members. We all need to keep in mind that baptism is a gate that sets us on a path of endureing in faith to the end. Not everyone is on the same part of the trail. Some just started through the gate.

I have alot more to say on this, but I have to go. And lets remember, Infynatly mustaken is an apostate son of perdition, and his opinion on any matter of the gospel is spoken from that position.

Gaz

[_harmony]

Well said Harmony. For the most part.

The gospel is there to teach us the culture of God. that's all the gospel is, looking beyond this and freaking out of infintesimal points of doctrine does obscure this for some members. We all need to keep in mind that baptism is a gate that sets us on a path of endureing in faith to the end. Not everyone is on the same part of the trail. Some just started through the gate.

I have alot more to say on this, but I have to go. And lets remember, Infynatly mustaken is an apostate son of perdition, and his opinion on any matter of the gospel is spoken from that position.

Gaz

Infymus is not a son of perdition, Gaz. I suggest you look up what a SOP is, then come back and we'll talk about why that doesn't fit Infymus.

[_Gazelam]

Perdition means one that is lost. As in he was once found, but is now lost.

Ok, so hes not dead yet, and could still repent, but I see no signs of this, just an aggresive stance against the things of God. So you tell me, where do you think he stands, and who does he serve?

[_Infymus]

Well said Harmony. For the most part.

The gospel is there to teach us the culture of God. that's all the gospel is, looking beyond this and freaking out of infintesimal points of doctrine does obscure this for some members. We all need to keep in mind that baptism is a gate that sets us on a path of endureing in faith to the end. Not everyone is on the same part of the trail. Some just started through the gate.

I have alot more to say on this, but I have to go. And lets remember, Infynatly mustaken is an apostate son of perdition, and his opinion on any matter of the gospel is spoken from that position.

Gaz

Well said Harmony. For the most part.

The gospel is there to teach us the culture of God. that's all the gospel is, looking beyond this and freaking out of infintesimal points of doctrine does obscure this for some members. We all need to keep in mind that baptism is a gate that sets us on a path of endureing in faith to the end. Not everyone is on the same part of the trail. Some just started through the gate.

I have alot more to say on this, but I have to go. And lets remember, Infynatly mustaken is an apostate son of perdition, and his opinion on any matter of the gospel is spoken from that position.

Gaz

Ah yes, Gaz. You reveal more and more about yourself and I can see your understanding of Mormon Doctrine is less than I thought. You spout a lot of it on these forums, but I wonder: Do you really understand it?

I am an apostate. I willfully left the Mormon Church in direct opposition to the Mormon God and his Plan Of Salvation™. I am not, nor do I qualify – to be a son of perdition. Do you own a copy of Mormon Doctrine by McConkie? I have never seen God, nor an angel, or the Mormon Jesus – therefore I do not qualify for Outer Darkness™.

It’s ok Gaz. This is why the Mormon Church disfellowshipped Grant Palmer. It was purely a smear campaign. Members – like you – will be less inclined to read material by someone who has been disfellowshipped – or like myself, has left the church entirely.

To answer your prior question above, I do not ever recall “Freaking Out” over “Infintesimal” (by the way, it is spelled infinitesimal) points of doctrine. I had great concerns over what I considered to be major points of doctrine. Three kingdoms of God – two of which once you are placed in become prisons – is not an infinitesimal point of doctrine. This is frightening material. Do you comprehend eternity? Perhaps not as you seem more narrow of view and I think you find it titillating to spout doctrinal points and watch people squirm with them. At the same time I perceive you know less about your own dogma than you let on.

My entire point to all of this could be summed up in far less words.

The Mormon Jesus Christ presents a Plan Of Salvation. The mere presentation of the Plan is a deception. Jesus is “presenting” you with a plan and convincing you that you have the “right to choose” whether or not to follow it. But the truth is, you have no choice and the presentation is simply a psychological transfer of power from him to you of power, where no power of choice actually exists for you. In all “truithiness”, as to borrow from Colbert, the plan has already been carried out upon you. Now all you can do is obey and receive “blessings”, or disobey and receive “death”.

“I’d like to see what is behind curtain number 2 please”.

The reality is this: There is no curtain number 2. There is only curtain number 1 – the Mormon Jesus and his Plan Of Salvation™. There is no other way out. There is not a group of spirits living somewhere else in peace, or another God with a different plan, or another plane of existence where people who didn’t want to follow the POS™ reside. Anyone who rejected the plan were immediately punished and cast into Outer Darkness™.

As I have said before: Choice is an illusion created by those with power, and Mormonism’s Plan Of Salvation™ is an illusion of Eternal Happiness when in fact it is a nightmare of eternal prisons, lack of self, lack of personal identity and lack of real happiness.

I’m very sure Gaz, that you will not internalize any of this. You will browse over it quickly, and spit it out. You are wearing the tinted glasses of Mormonism and you will only see what you want to see – and will claim that anything else spoken by persons such as myself are carnal, willful and selfish – something your God doesn’t want. Your God wants people like you, people who do not question. People who will never ask the question: WHY?

[_guy sajer]

I hope that Infymus doesn't mind, but I borrowed a quote from the "Tanner is Burning in Hell" thread on the Telestial Forum to springboard a new topic:

"Since the Mormon Jesus’ plan is a plan of compulsion – every knee shall bow and accept he is God, therefore none of us have a choice, even if we reject it all to the last day. No free agency, no decision made on our parts – we are forced to accept and obey. "


Wow, you must really hate gravity then, you know, being this confineing law that holds you down and all. Do you go outside and look up and the sun and scream alot? "Curse you! Damn you , you bringer of confineing gravity ! If it werent for you, I could fly!!"

Post something else, you make me laugh.

Is that all you have Gazelam? Suddenly I hate gravity because I hate the Mormon Plan Of Imprisonment? Typical Mormon. “I have nothing to add, so I will – change the subject!” Is what I wrote too difficult for you to comprehend? I know that Mormonism teaches you not to think about things too seriously, so I will try and explain it a little for you.

You don’t care that the POS™ is flawed – because I’m very sure that somewhere deep inside you – you hope that you are going to make it to the top – as long as you keep paying, praying and obeying. Of course, you better hope that Joseph Smith accepts you, hope that you remember your secret handshake, secret new name, secret passwords – providing you have paid enough money to get into the temple and the maintain paying money for the rest of your life. Even if you make it that far, you will of course be assigned no less than 3 wives because to become a God, you have to be polygamous. And still, you’re at the whim of both Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. If you have at all strived for individuality during your lifetime - you will be rejected.

Mormonism offers no alternate plan to the POS™, no back door, no way out. Either you follow the Mormon God, or the Mormon God is going to place you in a prison cell. That prison cell may be adorned with flowers and sunshine, and vast tracks of land – but in the end, after millions of years – it will still be a prison.

The Mormon God is nothing more than a cruel warden.

It is interesting that Mormons who are enthralled in the cult cannot see the POS™ for what it truly is. You Mormons always get side tracked into mental gymnastics when faced with actually “thinking” about your own doctrine. You confuse the true meaning of Agency. You obscure the truth behind the POS™ and when you cannot mentally explain it, stoop to “all will be revealed after death” line of b***s*** reasoning – and the one I hated the most, “You choose this plan before you were born” crap.

Mormon POS™ has only two choices. Either accept and obey, or reject and be punished. There is no third choice. There is no walking out the door. You shall bow before the Mormon God and give him your ultimate obedience – or you will be punished. There is no "otherwise". It is not a consequence-determined event. It is black and it is white. And Mormons call that “choice”, they call that “agency”. In the Mormon Universe™, the only thing that exists is Mormonism and the Mormon POS™. Why would you want anything else?

The spirit prison and the plan of salvation is akin to this. There is no choice. Mormons state that the choice is that you would stay in that prison until judgment time - in which you will be forced to bend knee and worship God. And then you will be placed in a kingdom - definitely not the Celestial Kingdom - but some other kingdom that is "set aside for that which is filthy" because the Kingdom of God is not filthy. No, it is full of those with no mind of their own, no choice of their own – no individuality.

All three kingdoms of heaven in Mormonism - if we look at the universe as a whole, as an expansive place that has infinite expansion capabilities, and we place each eternity to eternity into a "bubble" as we would call it, we would look out and find an infinite number of bubbles for each eternity to eternity that has existed for which god has raised children to salvation and those children have gone on to be god's themselves and continued the cycle. Each bubble expands to fill the proportion of space and time that is necessary in order to carry out the plans that are necessary to raise spiritual children from stage to stage wherein they would come to a created earth, get a body, and move onto further stages.

What we would find if we examined this closely, is that we would find an infinite number of 1st and 2nd degree kingdoms full of those persons who did not transpire to the level of the Celestial kingdom for which they could continue on as god's themselves. Therefore we would find a number of souls that could not be calculated in numbers that are in states of prisons where they cannot move from kingdom to kingdom. This is an awful state. Mormonism accepts this state because they claim either these people merited this state of existence, or, these people were complacent and they choose to be in these kingdoms for all time and eternity - not just one bubble of eternity but all bubbles of eternity henceforth and forever. I am not even taking into account the number tossed away into Outer Darkness – and who knows how many times that has happened during the course of one eternity to eternity.

It is an atrocious fact that the Mormon God creates prisons in order to house those who are in disagreement with him. Because a person, who God claims is a son or daughter, a literal offspring of God, does not agree with God, that God locks that son or daughter away forever and ever. He claims that where he is, they cannot come. This flies in the face of reason and love and the statement that God has unconditional love.

No, the Mormon god is conditional - conditional that you fully obey him. That you turn off reason, you turn off choice, you turn off your individual self and become nothing more than a mindless follower who will always pay, pray and obey.

Agency, is an illusion created by those with power. Mormonism creates the illusion of free agency but further research and analysis points otherwise.

The POS™ is nothing more than a carefully crafted deception where the Mormon God casts his children into eternal prisons.

As I said, I would rather stand in front of the Mormon God and slit my throat than follow him in any way – shape – or form.

Although I am a faithful member of the Church, I honestly do share some of Infymus' concerns, and have struggled with some of these concepts. The "house of order, house of God" concept just doesn't fly with me in all of these circumstances.

As a parent, it is unfathomable for me to think that God would punish his children for doing their best. The Mormon culture is one where you never feel like you quite measure up. You are always feeling guilty for not being at the top of your game all the time. Life happens. People get upset. They struggle. And yet, even though we preach that it is important to be understanding and helpful to our fellow man, there is still a superiority complex which seems to exist when someone else is going through a trial other than you. More often than not, false sympathy and judgementalism seems to get in the way of real service and empathy toward each other.

If I have really done my best to live a moral life, but I have still made mistakes, according to Mormon theology, I will lose my husband and children and be relegated to a "lower kingdom" where I will be single forever and ever.

It just doesn't seem right to me. This is a large piece of doctrine that I struggle with.

Thoughts?

Mormon doctrine portrays God as a “father” and imbues him with noble human virtues such as love, charity, generosity, selflessness, compassion, and the like. He is, in other words, the ideal parent, the model toward which all believers should aspire.

But what kind of a father is he actually?

1. Because they disobeyed him and wanted something other than what he wanted, he condemned 1/3 of his children to eternal damnation outside his presence and apart from his love without hope of reprieve—ever.
2. He murdered all of his millions of earthly children in a flood, save a handful, for the capital crime of “disobedience.”
3. He murdered a large host of his earthly children (numbering at least into the tens of thousands) via floods, earthquakes, and fires as a prelude to his Christ’s visit to the Americas for the capital crime of disobedience.
4. He allows murder, cruelty, barbarity to be committed in his name and does nothing to intervene.
5. He creates mass confusion about himself and his teachings over the whole course of human history and he does nothing to clear it up; yet, he has the temerity to hold people accountable for not choosing the correct doctrine.
6. He demands slavish worship and tribute. The more obsequious the better.
7. He demands that all his children must follow the path he has pre-chosen for them regardless of their situation, beliefs, capacities, preferences, culture, experiences, disposition; he obscures what that path is; and he punishes those who fail to follow the path.
8. He demands conformity to HIS will and punishes individuality.
9. He punishes honest truth seeking if it leads to conclusions other than the ones he wants his children to reach; yet he fails to make it clear what those conclusions are.
10. He gives his children wonderful capacities for thought and reason; yet he punishes them for using these capacities too much.
11. He restores his saving truth through a morally compromised man within a context of controversial events sufficient to cause even the most honest truth seeker to doubt its validity.
12. Over tens of thousands of years of world history, he keeps his saving truth from the earth. He puts it on the earth, but then takes it away after only a few short years, and when he finally puts it on the earth again, he restores his saving truth to an obscure, insignificant Church that reaches no more than .001 percent of his other children.
13. He favors his male children over his female children; while permitting, even demanding, that the former treat the latter as property.
14. He favors an arbitrarily chosen few with revelations, visions, and other insights into his doctrines while keeping the vast majority in darkness.
15. He arbitrarily chooses to answer some entreaties from his children, while ignoring all the rest.

I could go on and on.

Now, for those of you out there who are parents, is this the ideal model of parenthood to which you aspire or to which you should aspire?

Can any of you who truly love your children even imagine treating them the way our Heavenly Father treats his children?

[_Jason Bourne]

Although I am a faithful member of the Church, I honestly do share some of Infymus' concerns, and have struggled with some of these concepts. The "house of order, house of God" concept just doesn't fly with me in all of these circumstances.

As a parent, it is unfathomable for me to think that God would punish his children for doing their best. The Mormon culture is one where you never feel like you quite measure up. You are always feeling guilty for not being at the top of your game all the time. Life happens. People get upset. They struggle. And yet, even though we preach that it is important to be understanding and helpful to our fellow man, there is still a superiority complex which seems to exist when someone else is going through a trial other than you. More often than not, false sympathy and judgementalism seems to get in the way of real service and empathy toward each other.

If I have really done my best to live a moral life, but I have still made mistakes, according to Mormon theology, I will lose my husband and children and be relegated to a "lower kingdom" where I will be single forever and ever.

It just doesn't seem right to me. This is a large piece of doctrine that I struggle with.

Thoughts?[/quote]


I think being a parent and having a few wayward kids has got me to thinking about this a lot. I cannot imagine not accepting or wanting a child with me even if they are not totally following the rules. I think I would be there for them always, though I may not like what they do. I think I would allow them back home even if they did not meet all the rules. And in fact I believe that gospel expects us to be this way.

I have asked if this is the case, why would God be any different towards us then he expects us to be towards our children.

Now, the LDS Church is not unique in some of the complaints along these lines. Evangelical Christianity takes the position the God is totally Holy and Sovereign. Since we are His creation he can do whatever he wants. Not only that, since we are utterly depraved and sinful we only get back to Him on His mercy and that mercy seems, well, whimsical to me.

In LDS ideas about the after life there is the idea of spirit prison, varying degrees of glory and separation from God and family potentially forever. I guess I like the idea of the prodigal son, but then I have been accused of wanting a God that is just touchy feely and all nice. I am told that God is Holy, Just and justice demands punishment. God is also merciful and that is why God sent Jesus, to be punished for my sins. But that is kind of like beating one of my kids for what another does.

Well, I am rambling.

[_Sam Harris]

Infymus, your words were both powerful and poignant. Of course, Gaz won't get it. He's too high off of "being in the club" that he can't see the club for what it is.

Both Infymus and Liz, I can see where you're coming from. But let me play the Devil's Advocate for only a fraction of a second (that's all you're getting from me) and say that it's not just the LDS god who is like this. Fundamentalist views of God are conditional, period.

And yes, you do feel like you can never measure up. Some justify this by saying that they're already saved by grace through the blood of Jesus, and hence everything they do will be forgiven regardless. Those are some of the nastiest people I know. Others just live lives of silent self-condemnation, and that is even sadder.

I do agree with Infymus' view, that the Mormon God is a god of conditional love, and I do not understand how the church cannot see this, and even worse, tell those who know better that it ain't so.

Within mainstream Christianity, I see a lot of people setting precepts for how you live your life. They make it so freaking complicated sometimes! I just try to be the best person I can be. If that's not enough, then send me to hell. I tried my best. It is not up to any man to determine whether or not my best is good enough.

One of my TBM friends just cannot understand not going to church each sunday. Even if you're sick, you go. You're less of a servant of God and a child of God if you do not. I think that what you do the other six days of the week matters too, or am I wrong?

[_Sam Harris]

Perdition means one that is lost. As in he was once found, but is now lost.

Ok, so hes not dead yet, and could still repent, but I see no signs of this, just an aggresive stance against the things of God. So you tell me, where do you think he stands, and who does he serve?

Gaz, I think you're just joking, you can't be as bigoted as you are purporting yourself to be. Have you been drinking from the same water source as Wade?