Muslims and peace...

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I think that multiculturalism/moral relativism is the reason that Christianity has lost much of its teeth, because its mostly hit in Christian areas (i.e. Europe and America). All the zealots stopped being zealots, and stopped killing each other over frivalous things like religion.


Christianity’s “teeth,” (assuming you refer to intolerance and crimes against humanity), were removed by its own, and did not require outside religious influences to change. The Christian renaissance was self-induced whereas the Islamic reformation is being urged by outside Christian influences. There is a difference because Islam is not designed for reformation. The constitution was designed from the get-go to adapt to change. But any document declaring it to be unchangeable is not subject to change. This is just an analogy of what I am talking about. Islam is designed to be a 6th century religion and to make all outside influences submit to Islam, not vice-versa. Muslims feel we are forcing Christian values on Islam and they don’t like it. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a product of Western Judeo-Christian civilization. Muslims do not accept this declaration without serious redaction because it goes contrary to Islam. Humans do not have the right to change their religion, according to Islam. Slavery is still a divine right, according to Islam. It is etched in their religious texts and for infidels to think they can just come along and tell Muslims they are wrong, well, they got another thing coming; mainly because it undermines the purpose of Islam’s existence. Muslims refer to the time before Muhammad as the period of ignorance. They need to believe that Islam came and made everything better in every imaginable way. There is nothing Muslims believe they can learn from non-Muslims because it implies that something is missing in Islam, which is supposed to already cover every aspect of a Muslim’s life, be it religious, social or political.

There is a reason why the majority of the Muslim world lives in ancient times. Those are the glory days they think should have never changed. This is why Muslims also feel western influences are godless and should be rejected by Muslims everywhere.

You can't tell me Christianity doesn't have a certain history of marginializing different beliefs with the history of wars between Catholic and Protestant, the various Inquisitions, etc etc.


Yes, Christians have been less tolerant of heresy sure. But that is not the same thing as being less tolerant of other faiths. Rome is the only place Jews have remained over 17 centuries because of the protection offered by the Popes. The inquisition had nothing to do with marginalizing other faiths. The inquisitions were judicial efforts that were taken advantage of by specific emperors. Scholars today admit that the inquisition was actually the most advanced and humane system of justice known at the time. Yet, even after the Pope said it was getting out of hand and asked specific Kings to cease from doing it, his words were ignored. Why? Because the emperors were not subject to the Pope. Christendom was more important than Christianity and the inquisitions were a good excuse to punish people they considered threats. They used Christianity as a symbol for the various kingdoms. The fact is the inquisition pertained only to those who joined Christianity and were accused of heresy.

None of this is comparable to islam, which was never a religion used as a symbol for an outside Kingdom. Islam became a military and a political system right from the start. It was its own kingdom which sought to take over the world, by force if necessary.

Christians aren't as stupid as Muslims cause they don't believe in suicide-bombing (what a waste of a good fanatic!!!!) but Christians still do things like bombing abortion clinics and such for their beliefs.


True, but these idiots are rejected by virtually every Christians and Christian Church on the globe, and you are talking about maybe a dozen people out of two billion Christians. You might find one or two Church spokespersons to support it but I highly doubt it. By contrast Islamic terrorism received funding and moral support from far flung Islamic authorities, and terrorism experts estimate that Muslims who can be categorized as radicals number in the hundreds of millions, representing anywhere from 10 to 20% of Islam as a whole. The vast majority, it is assumed, doesn’t support it. Their silence is taken as evidence of this, but this doesn’t logically follow especially since we have seen how Muslim silence has been a common trait for future Jihadists.

Incidentally, the media and the general public have no problems connecting the tiny, miniscule number of clinic bombers with "Christianity," however to do any kind of critical analysis in the Islam-terrorism connection, always results in an immediate stumbling block from the "but their religion was hijacked" arguments from both the media and the general public. Throwing around the words, "bigotry" and "intolerance" are usually the preferred weapons of choice.

Would you prefer if I said Christianity breeds robbers and thiefs then.


But this makes no sense. This is like saying the Alcoholics Anonymous “breeds” rapists, or the Boy Scouts of America “breeds” Playstation addicts. Unless you can show how being a Christian makes one more likely to steal, the statement loses value. But the overwhelming fact of the matter at hand is this. Only Muslims become Muslim radicals. The common denominator here is Islam, and it is no coincidence that they use Islam as their reasoning behind their actions.

What about the sack of Constantinople in 1204 had anything to do with protecting the Holy Land? The Crusades were are a slash and grab operation (at least for the leaders of the army). They may have had some thought of "saving their souls" but the whole "automatic ticket to heaven" deal was for the peasants carrying spears.


The crusades were a belated attempt to retake by the sword what had been gradually stolen by Islamic raids for many centuries prior. I recommend the same books to you that I recommended Plutarch.

I wasn't quoting Pipes. I was quoting that knucklehead Richard who used the phrase. Perhaps I should have said, "Oh yes, trust Richard, user of phrases such as "unwashed brown person" and "blood thirsty terrorist monkeys" to know what a racist is. Just cause a person says one thing doesn't mean they aren't another..rest of my post.."


Richard is a Muslim guys; my personal stalker. Don't put any stock into anything he says.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Muslims have been attacking the Jews since antiquity. Why? Is this just a global Hatfields vs McCoys type feud that no one can remember what started it and why?
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

dartagnan wrote:
I think that multiculturalism/moral relativism is the reason that Christianity has lost much of its teeth, because its mostly hit in Christian areas (i.e. Europe and America). All the zealots stopped being zealots, and stopped killing each other over frivalous things like religion.


Christianity’s “teeth,” (assuming you refer to intolerance and crimes against humanity), were removed by its own, and did not require outside religious influences to change. The Christian renaissance was self-induced whereas the Islamic reformation is being urged by outside Christian influences. There is a difference because Islam is not designed for reformation. The constitution was designed from the get-go to adapt to change. But any document declaring it to be unchangeable is not subject to change. This is just an analogy of what I am talking about. Islam is designed to be a 6th century religion and to make all outside influences submit to Islam, not vice-versa. Muslims feel we are forcing Christian values on Islam and they don’t like it. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a product of Western Judeo-Christian civilization. Muslims do not accept this declaration without serious redaction because it goes contrary to Islam. Humans do not have the right to change their religion, according to Islam. Slavery is still a divine right, according to Islam. It is etched in their religious texts and for infidels to think they can just come along and tell Muslims they are wrong, well, they got another thing coming; mainly because it undermines the purpose of Islam’s existence. Muslims refer to the time before Muhammad as the period of ignorance. They need to believe that Islam came and made everything better in every imaginable way. There is nothing Muslims believe they can learn from non-Muslims because it implies that something is missing in Islam, which is supposed to already cover every aspect of a Muslim’s life, be it religious, social or political.

There is a reason why the majority of the Muslim world lives in ancient times. Those are the glory days they think should have never changed. This is why Muslims also feel western influences are godless and should be rejected by Muslims everywhere.


By "teeth" I'm not referring to Christian intolerance. I'm referring to the loss of the "militant wing" of Christianity around the time of the Enlightenment, when Christiandom found new and better reasons to kill each other (Democracy, Nationalism, Racial issues, Colonialism, etc etc).

Can we agree Muslims and Christians are both wrong and have been wrong at many times in history? Christiandom has educated itself out of its archaic thinking. Now Islam has to do the same.

You can't tell me Christianity doesn't have a certain history of marginializing different beliefs with the history of wars between Catholic and Protestant, the various Inquisitions, etc etc.


Yes, Christians have been less tolerant of heresy sure. But that is not the same thing as being less tolerant of other faiths. Rome is the only place Jews have remained over 17 centuries because of the protection offered by the Popes. The inquisition had nothing to do with marginalizing other faiths. The inquisitions were judicial efforts that were taken advantage of by specific emperors. Scholars today admit that the inquisition was actually the most advanced and humane system of justice known at the time. Yet, even after the Pope said it was getting out of hand and asked specific Kings to cease from doing it, his words were ignored. Why? Because the emperors were not subject to the Pope. Christendom was more important than Christianity and the inquisitions were a good excuse to punish people they considered threats. They used Christianity as a symbol for the various kingdoms. The fact is the inquisition pertained only to those who joined Christianity and were accused of heresy.

None of this is comparable to islam, which was never a religion used as a symbol for an outside Kingdom. Islam became a military and a political system right from the start. It was its own kingdom which sought to take over the world, by force if necessary.


Come on! Heresy can be interpreted to mean that just about any idea is wrong. The Spanish Inquisition may have only been going after heretics, but they are also heretics for not "loving their neighbors". It's heresy to torture people for being heretics. It's a never ending cycle. Can't we all just get along?

Jews may have been loved in Rome, but they were kicked in the ass pretty much everywhere else in Europe. Antisemitism has been one of Europe's favorite pastimes that of course culminated in the Holocaust. That lesson hopefully taught people their lesson in Europe.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is the issue of secular law. In Islam they are the same, in Christianity of course is "render unto Caesar..." This is the biggest issue in my book. Islam will always be theocratic unless we educate non religious Muslims to see some middle ground in the world.

Christians aren't as stupid as Muslims cause they don't believe in suicide-bombing (what a waste of a good fanatic!!!!) but Christians still do things like bombing abortion clinics and such for their beliefs.


True, but these idiots are rejected by virtually every Christians and Christian Church on the globe, and you are talking about maybe a dozen people out of two billion Christians. You might find one or two Church spokespersons to support it but I highly doubt it. By contrast Islamic terrorism received funding and moral support from far flung Islamic authorities, and terrorism experts estimate that Muslims who can be categorized as radicals number in the hundreds of millions, representing anywhere from 10 to 20% of Islam as a whole. The vast majority, it is assumed, doesn’t support it. Their silence is taken as evidence of this, but this doesn’t logically follow especially since we have seen how Muslim silence has been a common trait for future Jihadists.

Incidentally, the media and the general public have no problems connecting the tiny, miniscule number of clinic bombers with "Christianity," however to do any kind of critical analysis in the Islam-terrorism connection, always results in an immediate stumbling block from the "but their religion was hijacked" arguments from both the media and the general public. Throwing around the words, "bigotry" and "intolerance" are usually the preferred weapons of choice.


Bad example on my part. Christianity is at a low point right now on the violence issue, but I'm sure back in the 1600s you could have found a few Catholics perfectly willing to strap a bomb to their chest and go after the nearest group of Protestants. Techology will always find new and better ways to allow us to kill each other.

Would you prefer if I said Christianity breeds robbers and thiefs then.


But this makes no sense. This is like saying the Alcoholics Anonymous “breeds” rapists, or the Boy Scouts of America “breeds” Playstation addicts. Unless you can show how being a Christian makes one more likely to steal, the statement loses value. But the overwhelming fact of the matter at hand is this. Only Muslims become Muslim radicals. The common denominator here is Islam, and it is no coincidence that they use Islam as their reasoning behind their actions.


Bad example. It makes no sense cause I'm an idiot and can't write worth a crap.

But I would like to point out that for most people religion is just a part of the whole. Being Christian for most people is just one of many hats they wear. It probably is the same for most Muslims. They were the hat and go to prayer, but they don't follow every teaching. Only when you allow a part of you to consume the rest of you do we have these nutjob fanatics. I just don't think every single Muslim (or even a few) will heed the call to kill all infidels, especially in America. Their culture rubs off on us, our culture rubs off on them. Give and take, give and take.
Last edited by Anonymous on Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

But I would like to point out that for most people religion is just a part of the whole. Being Christian for most people is just one of many hats they wear. It probably is the same for most Muslims. They were the hat and go to prayer, but they don't follow every teaching. Only when you allow a part of you to consume the rest of you do we have these nutjob fanatics. I just don't think every single Muslim will heed the call to kill all infidels, especially in America. There culture rubs off on us, our culture rubs off on them. Give and take, give and take.


I think it's highly unlikely that a Muslim in America would heed a call to kill all non-Muslims anymore than the average Mormon would heed a call to gather at Independence MO. People go through the motions of religion; they go to prayer, they go to church, they may even pay their tithing, but if push came to shove, we don't have many Nephi's among us (thankfully), ready to cut off a man's head.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

By "teeth" I'm not referring to Christian intolerance. I'm referring to the loss of the "militant wing" of Christianity around the time of the Enlightenment, when Christiandom found new and better reasons to kill each other (Democracy, Nationalism, Racial issues, Colonialism, etc etc).


But you’re missing the point I think. Christendom was healed through Christianity. It wasn’t foreign persuasion that ended slavery; it was the Christian abolitionist movement. By contrast, slavery exists today only in Muslim countries, but it is such the norm there and nobody is allowed to complain about it so it doesn’t get too much attention. There are no such things as Christian militant wings, and this is because of Christianity, not because of some outside force that compelled Christendom to change. It was self-compelled through reason.

Can we agree Muslims and Christians are both wrong and have been wrong at many times in history?


Well sure, but why stop there? We could probably agree that every single human being, dead or alive, has been wrong at times in their history. Why I object to is the relativism that seeks to equate all religions. All this does is aide the terrorists who look for sympathizers. I know you don’t sympathize with them, but that is how it comes across to everyone including them. I mean it kinda makes it hard to condemn certain aspects of a religion when the relativists make the target religion in general.

Christiandom has educated itself out of its archaic thinking. Now Islam has to do the same.


But it isn’t about archaic thinking. It is about religious beliefs, texts and the interpretation of those texts. The Islamic paradigm opposes change, especially of the scale that we would need to see before we could say Islam was compatible with western civilization. Until sharia is divorced from Islam, there simply isn’t a chance. But for Muslim authorities, sharia is just as much a part of Islam as the Ummah and the Quran itself.

Come on! Heresy can be interpreted to mean that just about any idea is wrong. The Spanish Inquisition may have only been going after heretics, but they are also heretics for not "loving their neighbors".


I am pointing out that the Inquisition did not target Jews and Muslims. It only targeted heretics who were occasionally former Jews or former Muslims. The primary fear was - and this is when the Inquisition got out of hand - that Jews were joining Christianity under false pretenses and then teaching Judaism behind closed doors. In Christianity at the time, it was better to convert to Judaism or Islam from Christianity, rather than claim to be a Christian while teaching falsehoods. You see the same attitude in Mormonism. The reason why they cannot stand me at FAIR is because I claim to be one of them, yet I do not toe the party line when they expect me to. I disgust them. They’d have more respect for me I think if I just announced my apostasy from the faith. That way they never have to deal with anything I say intellectually; they can just call me an ex-Mormon and leave it at that.

Anyway, in Islam it was impossible to convert from Islam to any faith. Islamic law demanded the death penalty for any Muslim who tried to change his religion, and in fact, that law stands today unchanged because it cannot be changed. There was never a real problem of heresy in Islam. As long as you were a Muslim you were not an infidel. As long as you didn’t preach or believe anything outrageous, there was no system un place to declare heresy. Nor was there any political threats presented in Islam by heresy. If there were, then you can be sure that the situation would have been less tolerant than the Inquisition. Again, Islam kills its apostates, Christianity did not.


It's heresy to torture people for being heretics. It's a never ending cycle. Can't we all just get along?


The Inquisition did not torture people for being heretics. Again, this is a myth that was dispelled a few years ago when scholars were given access to the Vatican vaults. The torturing incidents were actually far and few between and they existed because it was believed a heretic was not confessing. As soon as someone confessed to heresy the torture would stop. The problem was that there were hearings held by the flimsiest of evidences. Essentially all anyone had to do was accuse someone of heresy and they were tortured for denying it. It was a sloppy system at times, but on the whole, considered revolutionary and humane – by the standards of the time of course. For those who would like to know more about the Inquisition, I recommend this thread:

http://www.kevingraham.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=235

Jews may have been loved in Rome, but they were kicked in the ass pretty much everywhere else in Europe.


You’re right, and that is because the Pope had no control over those areas, the Byzantine emperors did. This is my point really. It was political necessity, not religious. That is why it is important to distinguish and understand the differences between Christendom and Christianity. The Pope granted Jews the privilege to worship in public, hold public religious celebrations, and he even refused to let his own Christians testify against Jews because of bias. By contrast, virtually all of Islam’s rulers refused Jews the privilege to worship in public. Also, Muslims were allowed to testify against Jews whereas Jews were not allowed to testify against Muslims.

Antisemitism has been one of Europe's favorite pastimes that of course culminated in the Holocaust. That lesson hopefully taught people their lesson in Europe.


The problem for Europe is that they felt so guilty about it that they have opened up the borders to anyone from the Middle-East who wants to come. The result? Just take a look at France and England. It will be entirely Islamic within a century.

The biggest difference between Christianity and Islam is the issue of secular law.


From a political standpoint, this is probably true. From a religious standpoint, the teachings themselves are probably the biggest differences.


In Islam they are the same, in Christianity of course is "render unto Caesar..." This is the biggest issue in my book.


And for secularists it should be. This is what I was saying about sharia law. In Islam it is incumbent upon all Muslims to spread to other countries, create enclaves, try to outbreed the general population of the host society, and then eventually try to impose sharia law. They have already succeeded in Australia and they came pretty damn close to it in Canada. Muslims requested that in family matters, Muslims should deal with the religious authority instead of the civil law. This meant that in cases of divorce, women in Islam would suffer greatly. The male children would inherit everything, a woman’s testimony would equal only ¼ of a man’s, et cetera. The government body liked it at first because it would relieve pressure from the legal system, but then they heard complaints from a group of protestors who were, believe it or not, Muslim women! These women were scared to death that this would be allowed, and it almost was. Why it was almost allowed? Because of a blind ignorance that infects the West. The assumption was that since Jews were given this privilege, then there shouldn’t be anything wrong with extending it to Muslims. Now they have to contemplate denying Jews these privileges just to be “fair and balanced.” I guess you can imagine how the Jews might feel? But the fact is Muslim law and the West are at odds with one another. Muslims who believe in this law should be deported. They should never have been allowed to enter the country to begin with. But then, the only way the immigration system would know about this stuff would be to strip away the multicultural presuppositions that blind it and then educate itself on the matter.

Yea… That’s sure to happen.

Islam will always be theocratic unless we educate non religious Muslims to see some middle ground in the world.


Not in the world, but in the West. From a Muslim perspective, Islam runs perfectly well in the East. The only people who have problems with it are westerners and when we point errors out (i.e. human rights), they get offensive. Why? Because Islam cannot be improved upon, especially by infidels.

Christianity is at a low point right now on the violence issue, but I'm sure back in the 1600s you could have found a few Catholics perfectly willing to strap a bomb to their chest and go after the nearest group of Protestants. Techology will always find new and better ways to allow us to kill each other.


No, if that were true then you would see suicide abortion clinic bombers. The death culture and its appeal, as it exists in Islam, cannot be found in Christianity, especially in the form of suicide, which would, from a theological perspective, throw anyone who committed it straight to hell.

But I would like to point out that for most people religion is just a part of the whole. Being Christian for most people is just one of many hats they wear. It probably is the same for most Muslims.


You are right. Muslims tend to take their religion more seriously, but then again, that has much to do with Islam itself. Islam is set up to govern every aspect of a Muslim’s life through the Ummah and sharia. Christianity doesn’t have that. For the most part, just try to be good, believe Jesus is your savior, and that is that. For the majority of Christians, they don’t have daily rituals that consume every aspect of life.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

dartagnan,

Dare I say Uncle!!!

I'm tired of defending Muslims. To be honest the thing I started out defending was the freedom they deserve in America as nonviolent people trying to live their lives. Before I knew it it was World Civilization 102 again. Obviously we hold different opinions as to what is what. I hope we can agree to disagree on the many issues or we can start a new thread on Muslim/Christian history cause this thing is getting crazy.

This is a Mormon board I think. How did this get onto Muslim, Christian history?

My parting shots from this whole thing is that:

1) I disagree with the Muslims on most points. I disagree with all organized religion. In my opinion organized religion always makes someone out as the bad guy. The only bad guys in my book are those who do violence or offend others. Differences of opinion on spirituality and other issues is fine as long as people don't hurt other people, but religion is the one key thing standing in the way of global peace. I say scrap them all and lets argue over other things, such as who's winning the Super Bowl.

2) The only thing I really want to defend is people's right to say what they want in America. If they aren't hurting anyone I say live and let live.

3) I don't think American Muslims are the same as Muslims in the Middle East. They may still prey 5 times a day, but I think they realize that they have to play by American rules if they want to live the safer live in America.

4) If some war of religion comes in a hundred years between Muslims and non-Muslims I won't be around, so I don't care. But in my view it won't take that long....so I will say that if it really happens then the Western democracies would win based on current military power. Muslim fervor won't stand in the way of American firepower.

Europe? Don't know. They got a bad taste in their mouths after the World Wars, but those generations are dying off and one thing about Europe is that they never stay out of fights for long.

5) If there was a global call for all Muslims to kill everyone they wouldn't do it.

as I said earlier:

But I would like to point out that for most people religion is just a part of the whole. Being Christian for most people is just one of many hats they wear. It probably is the same for most Muslims. They were the hat and go to prayer, but they don't follow every teaching. Only when you allow a part of you to consume the rest of you do we have these nutjob fanatics. I just don't think every single Muslim (or even a few) will heed the call to kill all infidels, especially in America. Their culture rubs off on us, our culture rubs off on them. Give and take, give and take.

Bond..."Uncle" Bond
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

I hope i get the quoters correct in this paste-job:
Quote:
Well I won't hold my breath waiting for the 1 billion Muslims on the planet to kill the 5 billion non-Muslims. Muslims are not taking the world tomorrow. That is reality. (Bond)


You are right of course. It might take another century, but if things do not change, they are on that path. (Dartagnan)


"...if things do not change, they are on that path." "THINGS"???? What "things" do you suggest?

How might the Christianized world change to facilitate the peace required in which co-existance can be had? The Muslems?

Dartagnan, little question you feel justified in your stance. Am i right to conclude yours in a fanatical anti-Muslim stance? As for your comment re USA support of Egypt, there may be some truth to that??? US has been generous to many over the years. Including some who they have alienated...that's another thread :-)

However, there is a monument in Aswan that honours the USSR as the sole (soul) support force for Egypt's abiliity to build the Aswan Dam. A project that Israel AND the USA opposed! NO USA support for THE Egyptian project of the 20th century!!!??? (FYI)

While recently in Cario i visited Christian churches, and witnesssed Christians and Moslems living, associating and working together. Touring Egypt we visited both Christian Monastries and Muslem Mosques--some of the largest in Egypt--without fear or incident. Except to be engaged by a group of currious youth who wanted to know about us, what i thought of Egypt and how we were enjoying our trip... My bus had to wait as i wandered lost amidst a sea of Egyptians, a few of whom that could speak English guided me back...

Dart, i'm not sure what You propose in this perceived conflict? I don't know your socio-politico, or your religious/sectarian position? Will you please declare those for me/us? Are You a TBChristian? ;-) Warm regards, Roger
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Post by _Gazelam »

Before the second coming of Christ, the jews have to rebuild the temple. What do you think it will take for this to occur?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Gazelam wrote:Before the second coming of Christ, the jews have to rebuild the temple. What do you think it will take for this to occur?


What is World War III Alex?

Correct for 800 dollars. Choose again Bond.

I'll take "Bad Ideas" for 600 Alex.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Gazelam wrote:Before the second coming of Christ, the jews have to rebuild the temple. What do you think it will take for this to occur?


Time, material, expertice AND peace. IMSCO, there will be no "second coming" into devastation and rubble. Armageddon, and all of the destruction and human suffering that centres that 'event' is fantasia, and the product of minds that do not understand the person of Jesus or his messages, summarized in the "two new commandments..."

IF, for whatever reason you, or anyone, lives in pleasant anticipation of "the second coming", it behoves you, and them, to advocate for peace and protest war. Until that happens the whole of Christendom is living as "the great anti-Christ!" Gaz, can You accept that? Or, are You too, as nice a guy that you seem to be, in denial of Jesus' way to live? Warm regards, Roger
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