The Mormon God and Conditional Love

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_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Gazelam wrote:I notice that the "God kills" site doesent mention the Global (Harmony) flood, nor the Egyptian army swallowed up by the Red Sea. Also lets not forget the 1/3 cast out with Lucifer for sideing against free agency. that's a spiritual death.

Sometimes people don't make it through the refiners fire. Sometimes people come out golden.

Its based on personal choice, not Gods choice.


I'm assuming you believe in the Global flood then, Gaz?

So does this make God the biggest murderer in history?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Ignoring all the hyperbole and running in place...


How about we start with a popular cultural view of God in evangelical Christianity. Have you read the Left Behind Series. If yes, how accurate does this book portray the character of God and his potential dealings with humans in the end times? If it accurately reflects doctrine about this what conclusion would one come to about whether this God loves unconditionally?

If you do not want to look at popular culture in the evangelical tradition we can discuss doctrine as well. How about we start with TULIP.


Jason, you do not seem to understand the concept of one loud person not speaking for all of us. I have not read Left Behind or any of that trash, and that is because I chose not to, and I know a few others of conservative Christian faith who have made the same decision.

The book is not biblical. I'm tired of saying that to someone who obviously isn't going to "hear". The scripture that I pointed out in my post to Roger is one of the ones that LaHaye and his cult of followers use to justify their claims, but it never says in that scripture WHO gets taken...or why. Case closed.

An evangelist is someone who spreads the Gospel. The Gospel is "good news". It is not good news that God is going to kick someone out of heaven into hell, or even a lesser heaven. Neither are any good. 1 Samuel 16:7 (a scripture much quoted in the LDS tradition) and Romans 2:14-16 are just two scriptures that speak of a God who looks at the inner man, which I believe transcends religious tradition.

Onto yet another load of bovine fecal matter that those who oppose fundamentalism with the evangelical mask:

Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.


Some of us believe that since God's creation was ultimately good before it was bad, we are inherently good. See the book called Creation Regained, and The Transforming Vision.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.


LOL, how is this:

"I love you but if you disobey me, I'll put you out of my house forever"

worse than this:

"I love you but if you disobey me, I'll lock you in your room forever. You'll still be in my house, but never able to see me again."

Only Fundies, be they Mormon or Mainstream Christian believe this, and it is weak and telling that this is all you have to back your stance, your opinions with not a bit of literature behind them.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.


LOL! Do we have to go there? Only Mormons get to the highest heaven! Sorry, but clean your own house before you make all evangelicals, myself included responsible for such an abhorrent and ultimately dead doctrine. Your friends who you say you're trying to understand don't count for all of this. I have never been taught this outside the LDS church, in the form of the whole "God's chosen people" thing.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.


I guess that's why your faith touts agency, the rest of us have no choice. Um, again, bogus. If you know and have talked to as many people as you say you have, I'm sure they'd all tell you of at least one (and in my case many) instances in which they have willingly walked away from God.

Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


There is a scripture in Romans that I cannot find right now as I am at work that refutes this. It says that though you are saved, don't ride on that, because you CAN nullify your own salvation. But only those who read and study these things would know this.

Jason, you are determined to hold onto your view of evangelicals, and I'm sorry for what fundamentalists throughout history have done to your faith. No matter what Joseph Smith did, religious cruelty was not warranted. But I am on a personal journey to better myself, and because I once had the same view you did of evangelicals, I didn't like the fact that I had assimilated myself into their ranks. I didn't realize that it had happened, because the behavior and teachings that I found myself in the midst of went in the face of every stereotype I had allowed msyelf to accept through dealing with both fundie family and the rumors I heard during my five years as a Mormon. But once I saw those people walking the talk, my beliefs changed. Perhaps I'm just in a better part of the country for evangelicals, but I doubt it. Prince Georges County MD has the largest concentration of megachurches in the country, and I know many people who attend these churches. I believe them to be products of the preaching, and the teaching I'm getting does not focus (unlike your faith) on being "God's chosen", rather on making it from sunday to sunday in a very challenging world with a loving God at your side.

Have at it, my friend, have at it. I like to discuss things with people who are willing to exchange ideas, not just stay stuck in their negative views of others. And quit it with the tu quoque mess. It's juvenile. I don't know you as a person, so I can't say whether you are good or bad, that isn't even my jurisdiction (gasp! coming from an evangelical!) but I can say your arguments are weak.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

liz3564 wrote:
Interestingly the LDS calling and election made sure has sure dropped out of site over the past 75 years and is rarely mentioned now. I asked someone I know in a temple presidency about this once and he seeemed to know little about it. But he may have been playing dumb with me to keep it under wraps.



There seems to be quite a bit of uncomfortable doctrine being "kept under raps" these days.

Unfortunately for the Church, a lot of it is being discovered by members via the Internet. ;)


Amen, Liz. And the same thing goes for mainstream Christianity, including the evangelical faith, for those of us who are willing to research. But perhaps the possibility of finding something good is too scary. I dunno. There are those who realize that there are things about the LDS faith that have been blown out of proportion (like the temple ceremony, I never saw any animal or child sacrifice, naked old people, or humans with borns), and there are those who realize the (hard to find but still there) differences between fundamentalism, a universal phenomenon, and evangelism, at the root definition, the spreading of good news. Just because TV evangelists exist who try to exploit people of their money, and preach false doctrine doesn't mean that all of the evangelical faith is that way.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Amen, Liz. And the same thing goes for mainstream Christianity, including the evangelical faith, for those of us who are willing to research.


Well, GIMR, I guess that's why progressive LDS(me) and progressive EV's(you) may be the future! ;) It's definitely why we get along so well. LOL

I guess what bothers me the most about the whole concept of "final judgement" is that learning is a continual process.

One thing I have learned as a teacher is that you never stop learning.

Would a God who unconditionally loves all of His children really create a "cut-off date" for his children to have the opportunity to be with him? That sounds more like corporate America than Heaven.

[/b]
_gramps
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Post by _gramps »

Jason Bourne wrote:
That last bit sounds like "calling and election made sure" in the LDS faith. Supposedly those who have had their calling and election made sure will be exalted to the highest kingdom of the CK, no matter what they do for the rest of their lives


Well sort of, but the LDS calling and election is based on the person's faithfullness and given through the prophet, allegedly directed by God, not by God simply choosing it at the instant of creation.

Interestingly the LDS calling and election made sure has sure dropped out of site over the past 75 years and is rarely mentioned now. I asked someone I know in a temple presidency about this once and he seeemed to know little about it. But he may have been playing dumb with me to keep it under wraps.


I know for sure that President Kimball while prophet was calling certain people in to the temple to receive their calling and election, i.e. second endowment.

Does anyone know if it was continued after Pres. Kimball's reign?
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Ignoring all the hyperbole and running in place...


Back attchya.

Really I think you are the one with the issue here. I am honestly trying to discuss things with you and have out right told you I am willing to learn.


Jason, you do not seem to understand the concept of one loud person not speaking for all of us.


Hmmm, the book has sold millions and millions of copies. Seems to be quite popular among the conservative Christian sects.



I have not read Left Behind or any of that trash, and that is because I chose not to, and I know a few others of conservative Christian faith who have made the same decision.



Ok. So?

The book is not biblical.


Well I asked if it was and what you though of it. I don't think it is all that Biblical either and have difficulty with a God that goes to great lengths to hurt in many sadistically ways, his own creations.


I'm tired of saying that to someone who obviously isn't going to "hear".


I am trying to hear. I am tired of trying to discuss things with someone who rants at my every post and does not hear what I say at all.


The scripture that I pointed out in my post to Roger is one of the ones that LaHaye and his cult of followers use to justify their claims, but it never says in that scripture WHO gets taken...or why. Case closed.


Ok. But there are a WHOLE bunch of Christians out there that disagree. Take it up with them.

An evangelist is someone who spreads the Gospel. The Gospel is "good news". It is not good news that God is going to kick someone out of heaven into hell, or even a lesser heaven. Neither are any good. 1 Samuel 16:7 (a scripture much quoted in the LDS tradition) and Romans 2:14-16 are just two scriptures that speak of a God who looks at the inner man, which I believe transcends religious tradition.


I would agree with that.

Onto yet another load of bovine fecal matter that those who oppose fundamentalism with the evangelical mask:

Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and depraved fallen creatures.


Some of us believe that since God's creation was ultimately good before it was bad, we are inherently good. See the book called Creation Regained, and The Transforming Vision.


Fist the TULIP dogma is part of reformed theology and the ideas of Calvin are quite well and alive among millions upon millions of protestant Christians. I agree it is bovine fecal matter. But I am not the one who promotes it. I just point out that the millions upon millions of Christians who believe it do not believe in a God that loves us unconditionally.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.


LOL, how is this:

"I love you but if you disobey me, I'll put you out of my house forever"

worse than this:



I agree.

"I love you but if you disobey me, I'll lock you in your room forever. You'll still be in my house, but never able to see me again."


I have issues with this LDS concept as well.

Only Fundies, be they Mormon or Mainstream Christian believe this, and it is weak and telling that this is all you have to back your stance, your opinions with not a bit of literature behind them.


This is not all I have at all. Go read Calvin and talk to a few SBC ministers.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.


LOL! Do we have to go there? Only Mormons get to the highest heaven! Sorry, but clean your own house before you make all evangelicals, myself included responsible for such an abhorrent and ultimately dead doctrine. Your friends who you say you're trying to understand don't count for all of this. I have never been taught this outside the LDS church, in the form of the whole "God's chosen people" thing.



Call to attention. If there are any evangelicals out there other then GIMR please tell me how dead the TULIP dogma is.


I guess that's why your faith touts agency, the rest of us have no choice. Um, again, bogus. If you know and have talked to as many people as you say you have, I'm sure they'd all tell you of at least one (and in my case many) instances in which they have willingly walked away from God.



My faith does not tout this though it does believe in free will. I know many EVs who do not believe in TULIP and do believe in free will. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel is one of them. A fine fellow and had been great preacher. I like him.

by the way can you discuss anything without trying to turn it back to the LDS position. I do not agree with all of the LDS position. And there is a lot of traditional Christianity that I do not agree with either. It stead of being indignant and snotty share with me what you believe and why. I really would like to try to discuss this with you. But your jabs are getting tiresome.


Perseverance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


There is a scripture in Romans that I cannot find right now as I am at work that refutes this. It says that though you are saved, don't ride on that, because you CAN nullify your own salvation. But only those who read and study these things would know this.


I would agree but many EVs argue this. Check out the web site of James White, the rabid anti Mormon evangelical who loves to debate in favor of Calvinism and TULIP. Your fight is with him, not me.


Jason, you are determined to hold onto your view of evangelicals,



No I am not and I have said that reputedly. But in my experience the funies are the most predominant and numerous I know. I have not met anyone like you. Here is your chance to enlighten some one.

and I'm sorry for what fundamentalists throughout history have done to your faith.



I don't think they have done anything to my faith other then to demonstrate there are a lot of differing views out there.




No matter what Joseph Smith did, religious cruelty was not warranted.


I am not sure what you are talking about.








Have at it, my friend, have at it. I like to discuss things with people who are willing to exchange ideas, not just stay stuck in their negative views of others. And quit it with the tu quoque mess.


Me too. Does this apply to LDS people for you as well? Sure does not seem like it. It seems you are real anxious to pounce.


It's juvenile. I don't know you as a person, so I can't say whether you are good or bad, that isn't even my jurisdiction (gasp! coming from an evangelical!) but I can say your arguments are weak.


What arguments? What am I arguing? I am presenting reformed theological doctrine as those from that view presented it to me. All I am saying is these views do not present an unconditional loving God. Did I make up TULIP? No. Do Christians today believe it? many seem to. Did I present it inaccurately? If so correct it. Do the popular books not represent what many believe as a pre trib rapture and what will happen during the tribulation period, the anti Christ and so on?
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Jason, you are picking and choosing things which support your arguments. I can present you with quotes ad nauseum, you will not "see" or "hear".

I turn things to the LDS stance, to show you what you do to folks like me. But if I were that rabid against LDS, I'd be on these forums more.

I'm sorry, but I don't feel that you want anything more than validation.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

And one more thing: I have stated what I believe, READ! I told Roger that I'm a critic of my own faith. I've tried to work with you Jason, all you have done is whine. You whined when I took up your challenge of a debate on the Bible, you whine when I contrast your points, you whine and tell me I think you're bad. I'm tired. You see, while you stay stuck in your views (I'm sorry, was that jab or the truth?) I will be spending yet another semester reading books that refute your views on the evangelical world. Now, do I want to make the dean's list, or do I want to try to convince you of your limited views?

There are people out there who really want to see the Christian world as a whole differently. I'll deal with them.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

GIMR wrote:And one more thing: I have stated what I believe, READ! I told Roger that I'm a critic of my own faith. I've tried to work with you Jason, all you have done is whine. You whined when I took up your challenge of a debate on the Bible, you whine when I contrast your points, you whine and tell me I think you're bad. I'm tired. You see, while you stay stuck in your views (I'm sorry, was that jab or the truth?) I will be spending yet another semester reading books that refute your views on the evangelical world. Now, do I want to make the dean's list, or do I want to try to convince you of your limited views?

There are people out there who really want to see the Christian world as a whole differently. I'll deal with them.


Look,

I really have tried to interact with you.

I tried above. I said I am open. I asked you to teach me. I asked about what I got wrong.

Based on your insulting regoinder I assume what I have written is accurate.

I am sure you are different then the vast majority of EVs. I am just sharing what I have been told BY EVS! That is it. Go bitch at them.

I see you as the whiner. And I do not see any realy desire on your part to enlighten me. I have asked and told you I am open.

You just seem to ignore that.

If I really told you what I thought at this point after this exhange I would be very impolite.

So, tally ho for now.
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Some references on the true evangelical view of mankind. Strange that only Calvin was quoted, what about Wesley?

It is an acronym for the ideas of Calvinism. Predestination, God's election of who he will and won't save and our inability to do anything about it.

Total depravity

We are all just downright horrible sinners and deprved fallen creatures.


"Or to clarify the point further, we may say that sin and evil always have the character of a caricature - that is, of a distorted image that nevertheless embodies certain recognizable features. A human being after the fall, though a travesty of humanity, is stil a human being, not an animal. A humanistic school is still a school (the criticism of secular humanism from this book's POV I don't agree with 100%). A broken relationship is still a relationship. Muddled thinking is still thinking. In each case, what something in fallen creation "still is" points to the enduring goodness of creation"

-Creation Regained, Second Edition Albert M. Wolters, p. 58

Gee, what horrific evangelistic thinking. Good news that we are inherently good! Flying in the face of those who need to portray all of evengelical christianity as right-wing, conservative, fundamentalist garbage.

Unconditional Election

God picked already whom he will save and whom he will send to Hell.


Can I ask who knows the mind of God? If predestination is true, then my lazy, adulterous father is in heaven...but wait a minute, the "vision" that I had (dream, whatever) had him telling me that he was allowed to "fix his mistakes", and that I was no longer to worry about him. Sorry to do this to you Jason, but many LDS jumped on this when I first related the story as "proof" of the validity of their faith. Well, I believe heaven is far more complex than we realize.

Limited atonement

The atonement only cover those who God already elected.


Again I have to ask who exactly knows the mind of God. Calvin and his followers were part of a fear-based faith that is still alive today, though many people are waking up. Some still need leaders to tell them what to think and how to walk in their own spirituality. But for those who don't, we can reject such an idea.

Irresistable grace

If you are one of the elect you cannot resist it. God will draw you to Him and you will be saved even if you think you do not want it.


This is so laughable. Let me quote one of my favorite authors, Joyce Meyer.

"We have to motivate ourselves to do what God tells us to do, when He tells us to do it... If we want to enjoy God's best for our lives, we must stop making excuses, stop blaming others, and stop being too busy to do what God says to do. He may tell us to give, help, pray, forgive, apologize, or something else. But whatever it may be, we need to learn to be "now people" who hear God and act quickly when He speaks to us."

Beauty For Ashes, p. 82

There are some here who eschew all organized religion who may find the above distasteful. Forgive me, but I am trying to make a point that not all evangelical teachers (and Joyce's followers number in the millions) teach that God takes you and holds you in "holy prison" to him. You have choices, no one is being pulled back to healthy relationship with God, they usually stay there if this is what they want. Unhealthy, fear based relationship with God, guilt-tripping a la Passion of the Christ might cause some Calvanistic like hostage taking, but that is the ignorance of the person who locked themselves in that prison, not Christianity as a whole. Mel Gibson is a freak.

severance of the saints.

Those elected who are saved will always stay saved. They cannot fall from grace.


Hmmm...

"There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew then for the Gentile" Romans 2:9

Seems God is punishing his "chosen" first. But what happened to once, saved, always saved?

For what's below, replace "Jew" with "Christian", and " the Gentiles" with "mankind"

"17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

How would a person who could never sin again beacuse he or she was saved forever dishonor God?

People throughout history have taken the Bible, both Christian and Hebrew and put their own agendas on it. Calvin, Luther, Smith, Lee, Dylks, the list goes on and on. If you were duped, that is your problem. The various interpretaitons out there is the sole reason why I look to my own, and fine tune my BS meter with regards to Christianity as needed. I'm not seeking any followers, but I am not about to fall under the tattered umbrella/label of someone who has been burned by those who were duped just like they were, only in a different way.

I don't view the Bible as the only truth out there. I think there's truth in it, but if you don't know how to interperet it, you're asking for trouble. And you will be susceptible to the Calvins in the world. Unable to see that Calvanism is not the whole, but a mere approach...that doesn't speak for every conservative Christian out there. Some of us, unlike those who dwell in the faith with all the answers are strong enough to say "I don't know".
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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