MMM Movie

[_Yoda]

And this is all, of course, moot, as there is not the slightest shred of historical evidence that "the church" had anything to do with this tragic, isolated incident.

As the old leftwing slogan goes, "reuse, recycle"...

WTF!!!???

No, Cog, there is no documentation that "the Church" as an organization, ordered the murders of those people.

Nonentheless, those people who committed this heinous crime were members in good standing of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and were claiming to be acting on the Church's behalf.

I sincerely hope that Brigham Young didn't know about what they were doing until it was too late...and God forbid he ordered it! If that's the case, then he has as much to answer for as those renegades do.

Get off your damned high horse of trying to defend the Church at all costs, and at least acknowledge that what these people did was wrong....beyond wrong....immoral. Is that so difficult?

[_Coggins7]

Get off your damned high horse of trying to defend the Church at all costs, and at least acknowledge that what these people did was wrong....beyond wrong....immoral. Is that so difficult?

Of course they did wrong. Who's denying that? The MMM has a long history in anti-Mormondom of which you are apparantly not aware. Critics of the church have been trying to pin the incident on the church for generations. I was only pointing out that there is no reason to do that (unless you have a preexisting agenda).

Frankly, the MMM is sooooooooo boring. About as boring as blacks and the Priesthood (and please don't start another thread on this issue just because I raised it here in passing).

[_Yoda]

Get off your damned high horse of trying to defend the Church at all costs, and at least acknowledge that what these people did was wrong....beyond wrong....immoral. Is that so difficult?

Of course they did wrong. Who's denying that? The MMM has a long history in anti-Mormondom of which you are apparantly not aware. Critics of the church have been trying to pin the incident on the church for generations. I was only pointing out that there is no reason to do that (unless you have a preexisting agenda).

Frankly, the MMM is sooooooooo boring. About as boring as blacks and the Priesthood (and please don't start another thread on this issue just because I raised it here in passing).

Thank you for admitting they did wrong. Since I'm not a part of "anti-Mormondom", you're right. I wasn't aware of the intensity of critics in trying to pin the incident on the Church. However, you really can't blame people for connecting the Church with the incident, based on the information that is available.

I don't have any type of anti-Mormon agenda, because I am not anti-Mormon. I'm an active member of the Church. I do have problems with supposed apologists trying to justify these people's actions. I see this happening all the time, and frankly, it sickens me. That's why I jumped on Gaz. From what I read, that seemed to be what he was doing. Now, if I was mistaken, I'm more than happy to apologize, but I think he needs to clarify what he meant by his earlier statement about some fault being on the heads of those in the wagon party.

The OP of the thread involved the fact that a movie about the incident is coming out. In my opinion, I frankly hope it isn't released. It was a horrific incident which has no business being glorified as some type of gruesome entertainment.

[_Coggins7]

I do have problems with supposed apologists trying to justify these people's actions

I know of no such attempts for my entire lifetime. I have read some things by people who have pointed out that these Mormons were sick and tired of being driven out of their homes, having their families assaulted by rampaging mobs, having their wives gang raped, thier children killed, there property violated etc., and having the Constitution removed from them as a legal protection, even to the point of a contemplated genocide.

None of this, of course, excuses the behavior of the individuals involved, but it does put it in some context. These Mormons weren't out killing for kicks or out of religious bigotry toward those of other religions (think Islam). Here are some highly aggravated people who snapped and committed an atrocity against people who had nothing to do with past outrages. I've never known any LDS apologists, of any stature, who have justified their actions.

Loran

[_Yoda]

I do have problems with supposed apologists trying to justify these people's actions

I know of no such attempts for my entire lifetime. I have read some things by people who have pointed out that these Mormons were sick and tired of being driven out of their homes, having their families assaulted by rampaging mobs, having their wives gang raped, thier children killed, there property violated etc., and having the Constitution removed from them as a legal protection, even to the point of a contemplated genocide.

None of this, of course, excuses the behavior of the individuals involved, but it does put it in some context. These Mormons weren't out killing for kicks or out of religious bigotry toward those of other religions (think Islam). Here are some highly aggravated people who snapped and committed an atrocity against people who had nothing to do with past outrages. I've never known any LDS apologists, of any stature, who have justified their actions.

Loran

You must have missed the MMM thread on FAIR that happened several months ago. Actually, Pahoran, to my surprise, was one of the few on that thread who truly tried to put things into context.

[_Coggins7]

Actually, I'm trying to stay away from all these forums except in strict moderation, inlcuding FAIR. Indeed, I may post there a few times during the year. This place is bad enough.


Loran

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I do have problems with supposed apologists trying to justify these people's actions

I know of no such attempts for my entire lifetime. I have read some things by people who have pointed out that these Mormons were sick and tired of being driven out of their homes, having their families assaulted by rampaging mobs, having their wives gang raped, thier children killed, there property violated etc., and having the Constitution removed from them as a legal protection, even to the point of a contemplated genocide.

None of this, of course, excuses the behavior of the individuals involved, but it does put it in some context. These Mormons weren't out killing for kicks or out of religious bigotry toward those of other religions (think Islam). Here are some highly aggravated people who snapped and committed an atrocity against people who had nothing to do with past outrages. I've never known any LDS apologists, of any stature, who have justified their actions.

Loran

They didn't just snap. People might be more sympathetic to the Mormon position if it was a spontaneous, unplanned explosion of violence, two groups meet up and the bullets start flying. But what is so disturbing about MLM was how premeditated it was, and how organized the final executions were, the sneaky plan to disarm them with the white flag, then lining them up unarmed and slaughtering them on the order of "brethren, do your duty." This wasn't about heated passions. This was a carefullly executed slaughter of unarmed men, women, and children. Then, to top it off, they divied up the surviving children like spoils of war, among Mormon familes, and murdered any surviving children who were over 8. This goes beyond simple vengeance to pure evil.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

And this is all, of course, moot, as there is not the slightest shred of historical evidence that "the church" had anything to do with this tragic, isolated incident.

Wrong. There certainly is evidence that Brigham Young helped set the stage for the attack on the Fancher train, which ultimately led to massacre, when he met with several Southern Utah Indian chiefs on Sept. 1 (they had been brought to SLC by Jacob Hamblin, the newly appointed president of the LDS Santa Clara Mission which included Mountain Meadows). If that didn't reflect the Church's involvement, I don't know what does.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Frankly, the MMM is sooooooooo boring.

I doubt the 120 or so men, women and children slaughtered in cold blood at Mountain Meadows viewed it as "soooooooo boring" (nor would their descendants). Are Mormons "soooooo bored" by the murder of Joseph Smith? Methinks not.

About as boring as blacks and the Priesthood ....

It's only "boring" to those who blindly supported such a blatant policy of discrimination and now want to run from their culpablility.

[_Mister Scratch]

My all-time favorite spin was done by Pahoran, in which he tried to claim that Pres. Buchanan was somehow "more responsible" for MMM than BY. LOL!!