MMM Movie

[_moksha]

My all-time favorite spin was done by Pahoran, in which he tried to claim that Pres. Buchanan was somehow "more responsible" for MMM than BY. LOL!!

Perhaps Pahoran likes to follow the dictum of defend at all cost, even when the subject matter is indefensible.

[_Bond...James Bond]

My all-time favorite spin was done by Pahoran, in which he tried to claim that Pres. Buchanan was somehow "more responsible" for MMM than BY. LOL!!

I would just love to here this. Can you give a brief summary of Pahoran's argument Scratch? My American history bone is just itching to be scratched.

Bond

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Here are some highly aggravated people who snapped and committed an atrocity against people who had nothing to do with past outrages.

They did not "snap." The Fancher party was under siege for several days before the massacre. The Mormons had meetings and deliberated long and hard before coming up with a plan to wipe out the Fancher party -- and, in the end, they chose to use subterfuge to coax out the unarmed settlers in order to murder them in cold blood. This was not a crime of passion, but a premediated and deliberative slaughter of whole families.

I've never known any LDS apologists, of any stature, who have justified their actions.

As late as Dec. 1, 1869 (over 12 years after the massacre), the Deseret News was still editorializing that the immigrants' behavior caused the attack (which, of course, the writer blamed solely on Indians). And, to this day, apologists cite to the many rumors of wrong-doing by the immigrants, certainly implying the Fancher party brought this on themselves.

[_Mister Scratch]

My all-time favorite spin was done by Pahoran, in which he tried to claim that Pres. Buchanan was somehow "more responsible" for MMM than BY. LOL!!

I would just love to here this. Can you give a brief summary of Pahoran's argument Scratch? My American history bone is just itching to be scratched.

Bond

Heh. I'm pretty sure it's archived on the fittingly named MADboard. Just do a search of "MMM" "Buchanan" and "Pahoran". You should be able to find it fairly easily. As I recall, our very own Rollo was involved in the discussion, as was Scott Lloyd.

Basically, the discussion was revolving around the issue of authoritative blame. Both sides were claiming that there was a "mood" of panic and agitation that helped fuel the violent atmosphere, which in turn led to the MMM. The apologists were claiming that Buchanan was at fault here, since he had ordered troops into Utah. The other side said that BY was more responsible, on account of his violent orders to some of the Saints, his meetings with tribal leaders, and so forth.

[_Bond...James Bond]

My all-time favorite spin was done by Pahoran, in which he tried to claim that Pres. Buchanan was somehow "more responsible" for MMM than BY. LOL!!

I would just love to here this. Can you give a brief summary of Pahoran's argument Scratch? My American history bone is just itching to be scratched.

Bond

Heh. I'm pretty sure it's archived on the fittingly named MADboard. Just do a search of "MMM" "Buchanan" and "Pahoran". You should be able to find it fairly easily. As I recall, our very own Rollo was involved in the discussion, as was Scott Lloyd.

Basically, the discussion was revolving around the issue of authoritative blame. Both sides were claiming that there was a "mood" of panic and agitation that helped fuel the violent atmosphere, which in turn led to the MMM. The apologists were claiming that Buchanan was at fault here, since he had ordered troops into Utah. The other side said that BY was more responsible, on account of his violent orders to some of the Saints, his meetings with tribal leaders, and so forth.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

[_Mercury]

Get off your damned high horse of trying to defend the Church at all costs, and at least acknowledge that what these people did was wrong....beyond wrong....immoral. Is that so difficult?

Of course they did wrong. Who's denying that? The MMM has a long history in anti-Mormondom of which you are apparantly not aware. Critics of the church have been trying to pin the incident on the church for generations. I was only pointing out that there is no reason to do that (unless you have a preexisting agenda).

Frankly, the MMM is sooooooooo boring. About as boring as blacks and the Priesthood (and please don't start another thread on this issue just because I raised it here in passing).

Your ignorance is predominate in this post. You wish SO MUCH that it would just go away and that everyone else could just "forget" about the MMM.

It wont go away. It never will. So don't kid yourself.

It was a bloodbath.

The act, perpetuated by ignorant inbred hicks was a grab for the well stocked wagon trains, perpetuated by a supposed belief that the party members had something to do with their wacko cult leaders justified execution.

What kind of culture finds it neccesary to put a lead ball into the brain of young kids, hatchets into the brain stems of women and children? I do not think you fully understand the magnitude of this slaughter.

Cedar city should have been burnt to the ground, the citizens interned in a camp and the army stationed in large numbers in both Salt Lake and southern Utah.

How dare you spout rhetoric to justify the mountain meadows masacre? Your doing so is a reflection of your twisted reality.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Heh. I'm pretty sure it's archived on the fittingly named MADboard. Just do a search of "MMM" "Buchanan" and "Pahoran". You should be able to find it fairly easily. As I recall, our very own Rollo was involved in the discussion, as was Scott Lloyd.

Basically, the discussion was revolving around the issue of authoritative blame. Both sides were claiming that there was a "mood" of panic and agitation that helped fuel the violent atmosphere, which in turn led to the MMM. The apologists were claiming that Buchanan was at fault here, since he had ordered troops into Utah. The other side said that BY was more responsible, on account of his violent orders to some of the Saints, his meetings with tribal leaders, and so forth.

I recall Pahoran blaming Buchanan (at least in terms of his culpability being equivalent to or greater than BY's responsibility). He made absurd after absurd argument, and leveled every name in the book at Buchanan, but he's stuck with BY's actions ... and he knows it. ;)

[_jayneedoe]

The act, . . . , perpetuated by a supposed belief that the party members had something to do with their wacko cult leaders justified execution.

I believe Joseph Smith was murdered in cold blood as well.

Jaynee

[_Dr. Shades]

The trailer for September Dawn is now out.

It can be viewed at http://www.septemberdawn.net/trailer_large.html.

All I can say is, "WOW!!"

Time for Mitt Romney to kiss his political aspirations goodbye.

[_Gazelam]

I'm going to recant what I said earlier. From what I read there were some loud mouthed additions to the fancher party, but none of this excuses what went on. The wagon train was innocent, and the Men from Cedar city were completely wrong, even though the political atmosphere of the time may be partly to blame for their state of mind.

I've read other accounts of strange goings on in Cedar city, and the mentality of the members there. It was a sad state of affairs. Theres a difference between a true believer and a fanatic.