The Mormon God and Conditional Love

[_Roger Morrison]

Hey Roger,

I haven't overlooked you, it's just that I'm still at day job, and time is winding down. I have a few more things to do. I'll post to you this weekend.

Worry not. Ironically i just got my LT back today, so have been off-line for more hours than i like...i think i'd rather be without wheels at this point in my life... Trains, planes, taxis, busses & da Thumb LOL! But what subs for cyber links???

Jasson, you said:

by the way, I believe in a God that loves unconditionally. As I noted in another thread, or maybe early in this one, it seems to me that the LDS Good, or the fundie God (GIMR, note the distinction please) expects us to be better towards our children that He might be to us. I have have some wandering kids. One just spent the past 6 weeks with us and now is heading back to a bad live in relationship. I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices. But I welcome the child with open arms and will always be there and allow her back even if she is making bad choices. Of course if she is in my home and riotous and mean spirited that may be different. But she is learning, perhaps the hard way, about life.

I think God put us here in thus crummy world because it is the place and the way for whatever reason, we can learn to develop god like character. Challenges can bring out the best in us. But they can break us. God knew we would screw up big time. I really hope he takes us all to Him in the end even the ones who maybe screwed up sinning all the way and works with us from there in the eternities. I cannot imagine ever casting out a child that at least is trying. I cannot imagine burning them forever, consigning to outer darkness or giving them the crumbs, as long as they are trying.

Thank's for your candor in sharing this with us. You know from our other exchanges that i hold You in HIGH regard! Have faith, Bro! In your children, at what ever their age, and in yourself. One might think i would encourage "faith-in-Jesus/"God".

I take it you, and most of us have walked in that kind of "faith". Some have found life not to have been that great. Others have had little if anything to complain about. Some have experienced hell-on-earth from cradle-to-the-grave with "faith-in-Jesus"... As i read your comment, "... "God"put us in this crummy world..." i can't help but ask/wonder what brought you to that conclusion? How long have you thought that way?

I also wonder about, "I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices." When did you start thinking that of your "child"?

What "god-like-character" do You think He would have YOU develop? What makes You think AND believe, "God knew we would screw up big time."?? Do you think your child/children might feel the same way?

Jason i ask these difficult question in complete respect for you. I hope i have not over-stepped in doing so. If so simply disregard them. Or go to my PM box. Warm regards, Roger

[_Sam Harris]

Hello Happy People,

I will be under the radar for the next few days, my night job is in effect tonight and tomorrow night, and the day job is getting kind of tiring, I've been in the field. I'll probably be playing hard this week through sunday. Just so ya know.

Hi GIMR, i hope ya don't clapse under da load... :-) Night job?? Day job?? Look forward to yer return. You said:

In my readings, unless I'm that much of a bigot, and don't realize it, I see a God of love, who speaks many sprititual languages, as careful perusal of the stories and teachings of the Bible can prove. But I also see a text colored by the cultural perceptions of the men who wrote it, and I take that into context when studying. But I'm beating a dead horse at this point, it is simply easier to come to a conclusion than it is to do the homework involved to back that conclusion. There was a time when I had no idea what the words "tentative monotheism", "retribution principle", and "tradition of the elders" meant among many others. Hence, when reading the Bible, the actions of the people in it, the bloodshed, the agony of the psalms, even the acts of the pharisees in Jesus' time confused and at times horrified me. I see more now, but I want to see even more. Because now I understand how little I do know about God. But again, beating the dead horse.

I say, "you're on track." Understanding/awareness of "God" takes a lot of kicking traditional "dead-horses"! You mentioned reading Spong. IMSCO, he is one good kicker! His last several News Letters deal with the unlikely hood of much of what has been taken as 'gospel-truth'.

I think one should understand that much of the Bible is to be studied not as something to do/emulate but rather not to do! Which was Jesus' teachings--"New Commandments".

Too many folks assume ya gotta 'believe' it if ya read it. Without consideration of the meaning of "believe". Do "I" generally 'believe' the Bible? Yes. Do "I" generally agree with the Bible? No! Ya know what i'm sayin'??? One has to know the book before knowing how to take it.

I believe there was a man named Abraham. What i think of Ab is founded upon how i assess his history. IMSCO, Ab is not a person who i hold in very high regard. Nor do i agree that he is the father of all nations etc etc...

In all of this so-called religious 'pursuit' of righteousness, THE thing that must be 'caught' is the spirit of charity. All else fails and is as "tinkling-brass and banging-symbols"... Seek and ye shall find... Warm regards, Roger

Hey Roger,

I'm trying to try to hold up over here. Have a cold this weekend, stuff is going around my office, it was only a matter of time before it got to me. I sound like a man right now, my throat is so hoarse.

Man, it's not easy being a nanny by night, and now a dispatcher for my city's trash trucks by day. I have never heard so many people b*tch about not having their trash collected for ONE DAY. ONE DAY! There are old people in this city who chase after the trucks, what the heck, are you getting in touch with your inner canine? Jeez!

And then there are the munchkins. Overly spoiled by guilty divorced parents who don't know how to let go of their jobs in order to spend quality time with their kids, so they just let them kick, scream, do what they want, and get what they want. The result is a six-year-old son who won't sleep by himself, can't tie his shoes, and who hits, and a nine-year-old daughter who is SO mouthy, who makes a fight out of the simplest things, who can't blow her nose, and who loves to defy. It's wonderful. But they're used to me, so I stay. But how long, I don't know.

Onto the subject of the thread...

I think a simple reading and not study of the Bible has contributed to so much drama and so many problems over the years. First of all, when it was written, and for a long time afterward, not everyone was literate. And those who were, were not always as learned as the people who wrote these books. Add to that the passage of time and change of language, and you have a very mixed bag.

I beat the dead horse because I personally feel that God is so much more loving than people as a whole portray him/her/it/whatever to be, and I have discovered something startling about the Bible that many Christians seem to have missed...it's not all wrath and judgement, and it's not all to be attributed to God! Don't just listen to what pastor/priest/bishop tells you, look for yourself!

Too many folks assume ya gotta 'believe' it if ya read it. Without consideration of the meaning of "believe". Do "I" generally 'believe' the Bible? Yes. Do "I" generally agree with the Bible? No! Ya know what i'm sayin'??? One has to know the book before knowing how to take it.

I often wonder what's so wrong with taking what you can from the Bible, that which will enhance your life and moving on. There are so many Christians who are against this. Why? I definitely understand you, Roger.

I believe there was a man named Abraham. What i think of Ab is founded upon how i assess his history. IMSCO, Ab is not a person who i hold in very high regard. Nor do i agree that he is the father of all nations etc etc...

I was thinking the other day that humans on the spiritual plane look to God to explain things they cannot, and the stories of the Bible are no different. I'm sorry, but the world ain't 6,000 years old.

In all of this so-called religious 'pursuit' of righteousness, THE thing that must be 'caught' is the spirit of charity. All else fails and is as "tinkling-brass and banging-symbols"... Seek and ye shall find... Warm regards, Roger

AMEN!

*cough* Having a cold sucks!

[_moksha]

Too many folks assume ya gotta 'believe' it if ya read it. Without consideration of the meaning of "believe". Do "I" generally 'believe' the Bible? Yes. Do "I" generally agree with the Bible? No! Ya know what i'm sayin'??? One has to know the book before knowing how to take it.

I often wonder what's so wrong with taking what you can from the Bible, that which will enhance your life and moving on. There are so many Christians who are against this. Why? I definitely understand you, Roger.

*cough* Having a cold sucks!

Most likely the best we can do is to hold onto, and perhaps refine, our beliefs and hope they are not too incorrect. It has always seemed that trying to comprehend a greater understanding with the lesser capacity of Mankind leaves us with a fuzzy image. It is a fringe benefit if our beliefs make us better people.

by the way, get well soon...Have you tried the curl up in bed with a good book and chocolate cure yet?

[_Jason Bourne]

I want to cultivate my faith in a way that I can give more than a testimony when asked questions, and yet still be respectful of those who are not convinced by my words. My only beef is the assumption that all evangelicals are fundies. FUNDIES STINK!

Fundamentalism traverses all philosophical thought, as it is the belief that only YOUR path is the right one, or completely right one. This knocks a whole lot of animals off the ark who should be there, in my opinion.

May I ask you, what percent of evangelicals are fundie types? It seems that they are at least the loudest, most vocal and there more. On message boards, on the radio, writing books, etc.

Perhaps I have been tainted on this because of the contacts I have had, many with the fundie EV that is anti LDS and at various functions that LDS put on.

But I am interested to know what you think about the make up of EVs as a whole.

Thanks

[_Jason Bourne]

I take it you, and most of us have walked in that kind of "faith". Some have found life not to have been that great. Others have had little if anything to complain about. Some have experienced hell-on-earth from cradle-to-the-grave with "faith-in-Jesus"... As i read your comment, "... "God"put us in this crummy world..." i can't help but ask/wonder what brought you to that conclusion? How long have you thought that way?

The words "crummy world" were somewhat hyperbole. But I assume you are asking why I think this is a crummy world, not why do I think God put us here.

While I do enjoy life I find it is fraught with horrible pit falls and challenges. Random acts of nature, accidents of every kind, random illnesses and senseless death seems to create a rather hostile environment. It seems that if God is real, he designed a place for us to live that was going to be terribly hard and challenging in and of itself. Add to that the atrocities that humans heap upon each other and well, yea, we live in a pretty crummy world. That does not mean that I do not think there is much that is wonderful beautiful and good. There is. But if God put us here with so little to go on, I hope that he really does love us unconditionally. I often feel I deal with my children in a more loving way than it seem, based on strict LDS views and Fundie Christian views, then he does with us.

How long have I felt some of this. Off and on for a long time but really, some of the more concrete feelings on this, maybe the past 3 years or so.

Does this make sense?

I also wonder about, "I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices." When did you start thinking that of your "child"?

When she started making them. Maybe poor choices is a better term. Without going into details, she has made some very unwise choices that seem to be leading her to a destination of sorrow and misery. It focuses around a relationship with a man that seems to be emotionally abusive as well as lacking fidelity. She has given up school, moved to another country and has very little income to be with this person. I fear for her future. She continues to put blinders on. I have conculded that all Ican do is tell her I hope she finds what she is looking for, that I am there for her if she needs help and that I love her.

What "god-like-character" do You think He would have YOU develop?

Many, though I would put at the top love, mercy, meekness and forgiveness.

What makes You think AND believe, "God knew we would screw up big time."??

The was the stage is set is that we ALL will sin and the "fallen" world creates a no win situation. We are put in a fallen world, we all will sin, sin demands payment or punishment, the punishment is death, we cannot pay the price for the sin so He is His grace sends His son to pay the price. As and aside, I am not sure I understand why someone had to die. If God is all

powerful then why could he not just forgive us. Why did he demand blood? Is there a higher law then God, the Law of Justice, that demands payment is blood? If yes then is God omnipotent?

Do you think your child/children might feel the same way?

I am sure they knew I knew they would not be perfect. Screw up big time? Maybe. Not sure.

Jason i ask these difficult question in complete respect for you. I hope i have not over-stepped in doing so. If so simply disregard them. Or go to my PM box. Warm regards, Roger

No problem. I do not mind being stretched in my thinking.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Jason...

I'm so with you on this!

I absolutely do not understand the idea that someone had to be punished for our sins to uphold some law of justice. It makes NO sense to me whatsoever. It sounds like some early nomadic tribal groups came up with this... (smile). Seriously, I find this idea so primitive and unGodly as to make it comical.

What sort of decent parent would act this way?

And... the reality is... if someone else took the suffering and punishement, they why is there still suffering for those believers?

Yesterday during sacrament Marjorie Taylor-Greene, it was ward conference and the theme was how the atonement can take away our pain. It is a very lovely thought. But I have never experienced such a thing. Nor does it make sense to me.

We have a world filled with six billion people, many who are suffering beyond anything I can really imagine. Many have never heard about Jesus so how come they have to suffer when believers don't? And if Christ takes away the sorrow, why is there still sorrow? I understand some folks feel comforted in believing they will be with loved ones, or that God is at the helm, or that there is purpose to sorrow and pain, but the underlying idea of Jesus suffering so we don't have to makes no sense to me.

I see wonderful things in this world... I truly do. I have been fortunate to have incredible luck. But... I also see a world that for the past five thousand years has been filled with unbelievable pain and suffering.

If it is all just a natural phenomenon, and we are part of a great unfolding, an amazing evolutionary process, they I'm ok with it (I don't like much of it but ok). But... if it is all under God's direction and design, well.... lets just say I truly hope such a being doesn't exist.

Just being honest here....


~dancer~

[_guy sajer]

Hi Jason...

I'm so with you on this!

I absolutely do not understand the idea that someone had to be punished for our sins to uphold some law of justice. It makes NO sense to me whatsoever. It sounds like some early nomadic tribal groups came up with this... (smile). Seriously, I find this idea so primitive and unGodly as to make it comical.

What sort of decent parent would act this way?

And... the reality is... if someone else took the suffering and punishement, they why is there still suffering for those believers?

Yesterday during sacrament Marjorie Taylor-Greene, it was ward conference and the theme was how the atonement can take away our pain. It is a very lovely thought. But I have never experienced such a thing. Nor does it make sense to me.

We have a world filled with six billion people, many who are suffering beyond anything I can really imagine. Many have never heard about Jesus so how come they have to suffer when believers don't? And if Christ takes away the sorrow, why is there still sorrow? I understand some folks feel comforted in believing they will be with loved ones, or that God is at the helm, or that there is purpose to sorrow and pain, but the underlying idea of Jesus suffering so we don't have to makes no sense to me.

I see wonderful things in this world... I truly do. I have been fortunate to have incredible luck. But... I also see a world that for the past five thousand years has been filled with unbelievable pain and suffering.

If it is all just a natural phenomenon, and we are part of a great unfolding, an amazing evolutionary process, they I'm ok with it (I don't like much of it but ok). But... if it is all under God's direction and design, well.... lets just say I truly hope such a being doesn't exist.

Just being honest here....


~dancer~

Believers make great to do about the atonement and how wonderful it is. What they never explain adquately, and what I do not understand, is why the atonement was even necessary in the first place. Why does someone else have to suffer and die so that I can be forgiven of my sins by a so-called loving father?

Who established this rule and why? What's its source? To me, it is nonsensical. To those who exclaim in wonderous joy about how marvellous the plan of salvation is, my response is, "What kind of f'd up plan is that? Just what moron thought of this?"

[_Roger Morrison]

I take it you, and most of us have walked in that kind of "faith". Some have found life not to have been that great. Others have had little if anything to complain about. Some have experienced hell-on-earth from cradle-to-the-grave with "faith-in-Jesus"... As i read your comment, "... "God"put us in this crummy world..." i can't help but ask/wonder what brought you to that conclusion? How long have you thought that way?

The words "crummy world" were somewhat hyperbole. But I assume you are asking why I think this is a crummy world, not why do I think God put us here.

While I do enjoy life I find it is fraught with horrible pit falls and challenges. Random acts of nature, accidents of every kind, random illnesses and senseless death seems to create a rather hostile environment. It seems that if God is real, he designed a place for us to live that was going to be terribly hard and challenging in and of itself. Add to that the atrocities that humans heap upon each other and well, yea, we live in a pretty crummy world. That does not mean that I do not think there is much that is wonderful beautiful and good. There is. But if God put us here with so little to go on, I hope that he really does love us unconditionally. I often feel I deal with my children in a more loving way than it seem, based on strict LDS views and Fundie Christian views, then he does with us.

How long have I felt some of this. Off and on for a long time but really, some of the more concrete feelings on this, maybe the past 3 years or so.

Does this make sense?

RM: Thanks! And sort-of... I respectfully suggest you're struggling under the burden of error concerning "God". It has been around for some 6,000+/- years. The product of our Judeo-Christian herritage.

As to the hardness-of-life: That is the precept of Adam & Eve being expelled from the Garden--to toil, sweat and bear pain. THE primitive explaination to Your very question!! With little else to consider, such a story seemed good enough until some thing better came along.

Well, it has! But folks being what they are they defend this as true cuz it's what's always been believed... And could "God's" word ever be wrong?!!??

Well, it helped US create a pretty crummy world--in ignorance, i add. An ignorance that is very slowly giving way to knowledge and advanceing understanding in all of humanity's Universal affairs and quests. One of the biggest stumbling blocks to this revisionism/reform is Judeo-Christian based religions. Which they cannot help but do, being based on a false premise of "GOD"!

Congratulations on Your 3 Year pursuit! It is hard to let go! But, with a new grip on life--"... my yoke is easy..." there is lttle to fear. Especially death...

I also wonder about, "I think this child is foolish and wrong in many choices." When did you start thinking that of your "child"?

When she started making them. Maybe poor choices is a better term. Without going into details, she has made some very unwise choices that seem to be leading her to a destination of sorrow and misery. It focuses around a relationship with a man that seems to be emotionally abusive as well as lacking fidelity. She has given up school, moved to another country and has very little income to be with this person. I fear for her future. She continues to put blinders on. I have conculded that all Ican do is tell her I hope she finds what she is looking for, that I am there for her if she needs help and that I love her.

RM: I share your anxieties... There is little else You can do now but retain an open door to a place of unconditional love. It 'could' work out better than you now imagine. Free agency allows learning through personal experience. Today's world/universe offers more 'forgiveness' than at any other time.

What "god-like-character" do You think He would have YOU develop?

Many, though I would put at the top love, mercy, meekness and forgiveness.

RM: Me too... They come with practice. I don't quite understand "meekness"??? I don't see Jesus being "meek" in any of his encounters??? Could that be a condition desired/required by a master over servants??? Even if i were a master i think i would prefer a strong 'servant' to a meek one...???

What makes You think AND believe, "God knew we would screw up big time."??

The was the stage is set is that we ALL will sin and the "fallen" world creates a no win situation. We are put in a fallen world, we all will sin, sin demands payment or punishment, the punishment is death, we cannot pay the price for the sin so He is His grace sends His son to pay the price. As and aside, I am not sure I understand why someone had to die. If God is all

powerful then why could he not just forgive us. Why did he demand blood? Is there a higher law then God, the Law of Justice, that demands payment is blood? If yes then is God omnipotent?

RM: According to the false premised "God". And to the scape-goat tradition of Theistic appeasement by blood sacrifice. To understand "God" in such primitive terms is, quoting Jesus as he encountered the Ecclisiatics of his time, "To not know "God"!" Which cost him his life.

A lot of stuff to digest in this whole question of stewardship of humanity and its universe... Warm regards, Roger

Do you think your child/children might feel the same way?

I am sure they knew I knew they would not be perfect. Screw up big time? Maybe. Not sure.

Jason i ask these difficult question in complete respect for you. I hope i have not over-stepped in doing so. If so simply disregard them. Or go to my PM box. Warm regards, Roger

No problem. I do not mind being stretched in my thinking.

Looks like i messed this response too!! Keeps me humble :-( RM :-)

[_truth dancer]

If the premortal story taught by LDS is true then I am quite certain I got in the wrong line and should have been sent to OD.

The thought that I would vote for a plan whereby a innocent man took the punishment for my sins, knowing I would mess up, is about as horrible a thing as I can imagine.

I seriously cannot imagine being a part of something so unfair and hurtful. I REALLY hope I didn't agree to such a thing.

I understand Jesus volunteer (based on this teaching) but still... it just so doesn't work for me as something even remotely moral or decent.

~dancer~

[_Roger Morrison]

If the premortal story taught by LDS is true then I am quite certain I got in the wrong line and should have been sent to OD.

The thought that I would vote for a plan whereby a innocent man took the punishment for my sins, knowing I would mess up, is about as horrible a thing as I can imagine.

I seriously cannot imagine being a part of something so unfair and hurtful. I REALLY hope I didn't agree to such a thing.

I understand Jesus volunteer (based on this teaching) but still... it just so doesn't work for me as something even remotely moral or decent.

~dancer~

Hi TD, the cords of LDS mythology are very binding! Like scenes or dialogue from a play that one would rather forget, but they remain to haunt... Nothing in the New Testament, from the mouth of Jesus, that suggests such a scenario... While he says, "...I go to prepare a place..." to him it's simply what he's doing. His earthly mission--to introduce the "Two New Commandments" is finished. He expects to die as did Socrates and countless other martyrs...

IF this blood-redemption idea was as important, and real, as Traditional Christianism has passed on through the ages: IT IS STRANGE THAT Jesus NEVER MENTIONED IT TO THE CROWDS OF 1,000s THAT GATHERED TO LISTEN TO HIM!?

His major, and consistant, message had/has to do with human-relations AND justice! The strong will help the weak/feeble/needy/unfortunate... You know how that sits with the Religious Right Institute and the society of meism fostered by Christianism emphasises on the next-life...

As difficult as it is, i think it necessary to acknowledge Christianism has sabotaged Jesusism. However, i am heartened by the "Revival" that is taking place wherein "Charity"--in all of its ramifications--in this mortal life is trumping next-life obsession. When heel draging fundies catch up and REALLY teach money-love an' stuff ain't what Jesus was/is about, we could see some of those fears, anxieties, frustrations, disappointments and ulcers etc begin to disapear...

I heard a celeb philanthropist say something to the affect about the Forbes 500 and the country's wealthiest, "...if such be their state, they haven't given away enough." Couldn't help but think of LDS Corporate holdings...

Live THE moment... A dear friend had a stroke last night while sitting in a prayer-meeting... Warm regards, Roger