Does Mormonism affect how we treat our enviroment?

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_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

bcspace wrote:Actually, liberals are all for making unfair laws. A true free market (which we don't have) will fix the problem better and faster than any liberal proposal.


So says bcspace.

The returns on recycling are so low (and usually negative) that world-wide recycling will never take root.


That's debatable, and varies depending on the item being recycled - besides, recycling is in it's infancy. I'm sure there's some type of economies of scale to be had - we just haven't reached that level of participation. With attitudes like yours, it's no wonder it hasn't gotten more attention.

That is not the problem. The problem is dictatorial and socialist governments who prevent to wise use, development and distribution of resources. Overthrowing these governments and establishing free market democracies is the solution. Arm the right people, or come at them from without, or shut down all trade and aid to these nations. It's your choice.


Wow. It's bcspace's way, or the highway. It's a shame the rest of the world can't be as smart as you.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
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_Sam Harris
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Re: Does Mormonism affect how we treat our enviroment?

Post by _Sam Harris »

Rank&File wrote:Growing up as a TBM I was never concerned about the environment or the earth for that matter. Sure I didn't like all the smog in the air and it would be great to get rid of it but I was never concerned about the long term affects of what mankind would have on the earth. These were the last days and many people in their patriartical blessing said that they would be alive when Christ comes back. Growing up in Utah my whole life you would only see recycle bins for newspapers here and there and people would only recycle aluminum cans to try and get a few extra bucks. It was a pretty big shock when I went to California on my mission and everybody actually had recycling bins that they would also put out with their garage. It was a foreign concept to me and I thought it was a lot of useless extra work because Jesus was coming pretty soon anyway. Why try and save the environment when the whole world was going to be destroyed in less than 100 years. This kind of thinking did not just stop at recycling but Oil and other things. I figured the 2nd coming would happen before the oil wells dried up. We might as well get the most out of these resources while we can.

Now that I am no longer a believer, my entire outlook has changed. There still might be a God but who knows when the last days will be or even if there will be "last days". What if we have to stick it out on this planet for another 10,000 years or so or more? I am now actually concerned on what effect that we as humans have had on the earth and how we might be able to correct a few things.

Anybody else have similar thoughts when they were TBM?


I don't think such a thing is unique to Mormonism, within mainstream EV christianity there is a lack of focus on environmental issues as well. We're waking up, but it's slow going. I think that some people are so concerned with their inner life that they neglect to see what's going on outside their spiritual world, and the effects this is having on their progeny.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

We should take France's lead on nuclear power. Better yet, we could take the lead in nuclear fusion but we aren't doing anything about it. Democrats in the rust belt oppose raising mileage standards.


Are you saying you'd like to have a nuclear powered car?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I think this is a terrific question. My take on it is this: most TBMs respect Mother Earth, and many maintain a garden, enjoy nature, etc. (An additional reason for this is that many large TBM families tend to go camping for their vacations, as it is easier on the wallet.) However, my sense is also that many TBMs are deeply suspicious of Global Warming, and other environmentalist-related topics. This could be for strictly religious reasons---i.e., the world is going to end, so to hell with it---or it could be due to suspicions about the political Left (when Coggins7 shows up, let's ask him what he thinks of global warming). Overall, I would say that Mormons generally do a pretty good job of looking after whatever environment they are in, even if they continue to refuse to accept the overwhelming endorsement of global warming by the scientific community.


Oh, well, since you asked, I'll be happy to answer the question before its even been asked. To wit: anthropogenic global warming, espeicially the kind said to be dangerous or catastrophic, is without any doubt the greatest pseudo scientific hoax ever foisted on the western public in the history of modern mankind. As part of the anti-judeo/Christian, anti-enlightenment, anti-capitalist, anti-western, neo-primitivist, post sixties neo-pantheist religion of environmentalism (probably the primary alternative religion of the modern adversary culture) AGW has no contemporary equals as an opponent of both Judeo/Chrsitian values and liberal democracy.

Anthropogenic global warming, or the idea that modern industrial society has altered the natural climate crontrol systems of the planet and is causing an unnatrual warming of the earth has not a shred of empirical scientific evidence to justify the claims of its proponents and never has. The entire theory is based upon computer simulations, not empirical climate science in the relevant disciplines, and is, for all intents and purposes, scientifically dead (if empirical science is our point of departure). Not a single particle of empirical data has supported any of the major claims of the GCMs over the last twenty years or more, and most have been discredited since the mid-ninties when much more complete data sets (earth bound temperature records, radiosonde data, and sattalite measurements combined) became available. Even more telling is that paleoclimatology makes an utter hash of virtually every major claim of AGW theory. Historically speaking, whether your looking at centennial, millenial, or longer periouds of geological time, the present waming is completely innocuous and well within natural boundries (hint: for most of the 500 million years that life has existed on this planet, its been much hotter and atmospheric CO2 has been much higher than at present)

Environmentalism (the locus of AGW theory) is a fundamentalist secular religion; essentially a form of militant neo-pantheism, and is the primary counter religious movement spawned by the cultural Left since the sixties. Global Warming is the wrath and revenge of the natural world (Gaia, in some cases) upon fallen, sinful human beings and economic liberty ("capitalism"), property rights, prosperity and modern industry the sins for which modern man must atone or be punished by rising sea levels and global "superstorms". Global Warming is the eschaton of the cultural left; thier "end times" for the liberal democracy and economic property rights they so despise. The development of Industry, modern technological progress, the use of fossil fuels, private property rights, the altering and conquering of the natural world in the name of human health, saftey, and comfort, all are among the original sins besotting human kind; it is his fall from oritginal grace (the natural world without man or with man not far removed from nature)

AGW is an ideology, it is not a scientific theory (as it has no empirical evidence to support its claims) and many competant (and not a few eminant) earth scientists, including many climatologists, do not and have never supported it as a serious view of the natural world and man's possible relation to it.

Perhaps the only pseudo scientific hoax, of the many that the environmental movement and cultural Left have spread through our society over the last 40 years or so (and their are many), that compares to the potential damage that looms over the earth and its people if Global Warming true believers have their way politically, is the ideological crusade against DDT in the sixties that resulted in the ban of this chemical in 1973. The result of that, after almost complete eradication of Malaria in the Third World, was a massive comback of that disease such that since that time, upwards of thirty million people, many of them children, have died completely preventable deaths in Third World counties, primarily in Africa. And these people continue to die in droves as we speak, as neither the United States or the U.N. will lift the ban and the U.N., for its part, threatens economic sanctions on countries who desire to use DDT. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, for the sake of primarily white, affluent, western Boomer moral sanctity and pure-as-driven-snow social consciousness, poor Third World people continue to die by the hundreds of thousands each year so holy and sacntified affluent liberals in Europe and North America can preen themselves as they sip Starbusck Cappuchino in thier Birckenstocks on how "socially conscious" they are and how they're helping to "save the planet".

But of course, this mass depopulation of poor, brown people in the Southern Hemisphere is itself, a part of the environmentalist project; to decrease the population of the earth which they have long claimed is "overpopulated".

Anthropogenic Global Warming is the last, great white hope of the neo-communist and neo-primitivist Left to impose what it desires; a collectivist, socialist police state (or a primitive communist agrarian utopia) upon the liberal decomcatic nations of the west as well as upon the undeveloped nations of the South, with the most liberal of these, America, as its prime target because America, with its higher levels of personal economic freedom, prosperity, and techonogical innovation, is environmentalism's Great Satan. In process of this they will eliminate everything they despise: private property rights, economic liberty, traditional religion and values of the Judeo/Christian variety, modern techonogical growth and progress, and as many people as the moral scruples of the times will allow.

Oh, by the way, the IPCCs new forcasts for warming over the next century (assuming that any will even occur (Global Warming ceased in 1998, and has been essentially flat since then. That's right folks, there's been no warming for almost a decade--as the media hysteria continues to mount and Al Gore sweats in the freezing cold everywhere he shows up to plug his junk science propaganda film) have now been revised downward to much more conservative levels, as has their predictions of sea level rise. Not that the IPCC is the best place to get your climate science. Far from it. But there are actually more skeptics in that body now than in the past and as the empirical evidence mounts that a number of massive control mechanisms over which man has no control, including the Sun, are responsible for the vast majority-if not all-of the tiny warming we've seen over the last century, they're going to have to bring thier political objectives more in line with the science as time goes on.

My prediction? AGW will be as dead as Brontosaurus in roughly five years, perhaps less. Global cooling, promoted by many of the same people, and for the same ideological reasons, was long dead by 1983 when the present hysteria began.

Loran
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Post by _Coggins7 »

I was just thinking about that report to be issued tomorrow from the United Nations talking about Global Warming. I wonder if the LDS Church supports global warming as a means of hastening the end time?


1. If you believe anything whatever, on any subject, issued by the United Nations, your're credibilty as to serious discourse has just ceased.

2. The church has no doctrine of "hastening" the end times. I have no knowledge of any Christian denominantions, at least any major ones, who do. As to LDS, the time of the end is set, and the only "hastening" mentioned in the scriptures is that the Lord could "cut short his work in righteousness"; in ohter words, if a critical mass of human beings accepted the Gospel, or at least became sufficiently righteous, this scripture seems to indicate that the end might come sooner. Otherwise, the end will not come until the world is fully ripe and all that can be saved during the earth's time of mortal probation for the human race have been. Nobody's talking about hastening the end (except pot saturated Hollywood screenwriters who think most Christains think this way).

3. AGW is an ideological fiction. Chicken Little could never hasten the end times because Chicken Little was a hysteical liar and his calamity was a falsehood, just like AGW (and a plethora of other lefitst environmental scares over the last several decades).
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Your appalling misuse of data is apparent, Loran. A few corrections:

1. the malaria problem isn't due to the lack of use of DDT. The problem is the treatment no longer works, due to resistence built into the malaria microbe:

Indeed, the problems facing health officials in their fight against malaria neither begin nor end with DDT. Experts tie the spread of malaria to numerous factors, including the resistance of the malaria microbe itself to the drugs traditionally used to treat the illness[53] and a chronic lack of funds in the countries worst hit by malaria.


source: Norton, Jim. The DDT Ban Myth. Info-pollution.com. Retrieved on 2006-03-15.

2. There are approximately 1 million deaths from malaria a year, 90% of them in Africa, most of them in children under 5. That sounds like a lot, but let's compare. According to the World Health Organization:

Leading Causes of Death in 2001

Developing Countries
Number of Deaths


1. HIV/AIDS: 2,678 000

2. Lower respiratory infections: 2 643 000

3. Ischaemic heart disease: 2 484 000

4. Diarrhoeal diseases: 1 793 000

5. Cerebrovascular disease: 1 381 000

6. Childhood diseases: 1 217 000

7. Malaria: 1 103 000

8. Tuberculosis: 1 021 000

9. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease: 748 000

10. Measles 674 000

(Source: WHO World Health Report 2002. Countries grouped by WHO Mortality Stratum, with
Developing Countries representing regions with High and Very High Mortality, and Developed
Countries representing regions with Low and Very Low Mortality)

Malaria is only #7 in developing countries. In developed countries, it doens't even rate a mention (heart disease, stroke, and cancers round out the list with accidents and suicide are at the head of the death list in developed countries).

Your depiction of the heartless Baby Boomers is slightly off-kilter, when all the facts are presented. First, the malaria now isn't the same bug it used to be; it's mutated enough to gain resistence to the treatment drugs, and second, the reason DDT was such a preferred pesticide is because it was so cheap, not because there were no health issues attached to its use. Once the health issues were brought out into the open, and we began to have a decline in birds (ie, especially the bald eagle) due to thin eggshells, it's no surprise that a reaction occured.

If your assessment of the global warning issue is as skewed as your assessment of the DDT issue, your bias is showing, and thus your conclusions are tainted.
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Your appalling misuse of data is apparent, Loran. A few corrections:

1. the malaria problem isn't due to the lack of use of DDT. The problem is the treatment no longer works, due to resistence built into the malaria microbe:


I'm not misusing any data, the data are quite clear and well attested (as the many African nations pleading for the U.N. to allow renewed usage attests). The problem here is that you very simply don't know what you are talking about and do not care to know.

The treatment still works quite well when used properly, and in this sense resistance isn't the issue, since the aversion effects prevent the transmission of Malaria quite effectively, and far better than any of the presently used (and much more expensive) alternatives. DDT use, even in the sixties, was never really to kill the insects outright, but to keep them away from humans.

Quote:
Indeed, the problems facing health officials in their fight against malaria neither begin nor end with DDT. Experts tie the spread of malaria to numerous factors, including the resistance of the malaria microbe itself to the drugs traditionally used to treat the illness[53] and a chronic lack of funds in the countries worst hit by malaria.



source: Norton, Jim. The DDT Ban Myth. Info-pollution.com. Retrieved on 2006-03-15.


The page you reference contains not a single refutaton of the facts as they are known and not a single reference to a peer reviewed study of DDT or its present use. There have been many of those (and I can easily access them and put them up here, but why bother) and DDT is presently under continual consideration for reintroduction in the Third World as a control mechanism. And who is screaming the loudest for its use? That's right, African medical professionals, governments, and health experts. Indeed, WHO is now supporting the reintroduction of the spraying of DDT throughout Africa and the tropics in epidemic areas and in areas of high transmission DDT spraying has been resumed in Uganda and South Africa (in which malaria increased dramatically after spraying was stopped in 2000) and is being aggressively pursued in Kenya, Zimbabwe, and Zambia, where malaria infection soared after use was discontinued in the eighties.

2. There are approximately 1 million deaths from malaria a year, 90% of them in Africa, most of them in children under 5. That sounds like a lot, but let's compare. According to the World Health Organization:

Leading Causes of Death in 2001

Developing Countries
Number of Deaths


1. HIV/AIDS: 2,678 000

2. Lower respiratory infections: 2 643 000

3. Ischaemic heart disease: 2 484 000

4. Diarrhoeal diseases: 1 793 000

5. Cerebrovascular disease: 1 381 000

6. Childhood diseases: 1 217 000

7. Malaria: 1 103 000

8. Tuberculosis: 1 021 000

9. Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease: 748 000

10. Measles 674 000


(Source: WHO World Health Report 2002. Countries grouped by WHO Mortality Stratum, with
Developing Countries representing regions with High and Very High Mortality, and Developed
Countries representing regions with Low and Very Low Mortality)


The vast majority of malaria deaths, however, are completely preventable, and DDT, being the cheapest and safest insectacide ever created by man, is the obvious answer. Opposing the use of DDT to save the lives of these human beings is, in my estimation, tantamount to supporting mass murder. Knowing that a million people (the total is 2 million worldwide) are going to die, and that most of those deaths are easily preventable, and then standing in the way of preventing them, is little short of a moral atrocity. Rachael Carson has very nearly as much blood on her hands, based upon the effect her book and activism had on public policy, as Joseph Stalin.



Malaria is only #7 in developing countries. In developed countries, it doens't even rate a mention (heart disease, stroke, and cancers round out the list with accidents and suicide are at the head of the death list in developed countries).


So what? This last point is uttely irrelevant. Should we so much as attempt to prevent these needless deaths or should we not, and should we do it in the most effective and cost efficient manner possible or not?


Your depiction of the heartless Baby Boomers is slightly off-kilter, when all the facts are presented. First, the malaria now isn't the same bug it used to be; it's mutated enough to gain resistence to the treatment drugs, and second, the reason DDT was such a preferred pesticide is because it was so cheap, not because there were no health issues attached to its use. Once the health issues were brought out into the open, and we began to have a decline in birds (ie, especially the bald eagle) due to thin eggshells, it's no surprise that a reaction occured.

If your assessment of the global warning issue is as skewed as your assessment of the DDT issue, your bias is showing, and thus your conclusions are tainted.


Its sometimes fun to debate someone so completely out of the loop on the actual facts, data, and evidence relative to a specific issue because it makes one happy to be able to use the God given gift of thought in a viable way and to be able to think for oneself and study both sides of an issue in a philosophically critical way and come to conclusions based on the best evidence available and not the drive for self satisfied ideological purity.

Every statement I made about AGW is simply factural, and reprsensts the current state of scientific knowledge on the matter. I could go into much, much greater detail, as I've been following and studying this issue for quite a long time, but no need at present. As to DDT, mutating bugs have nothing to do with it. Bugs don't like it, and will not go where it is, and that's all that matters. The health issues you bring up have long been discredited in the scientific community, and only have cachet within the environmental movement, which cares nothing for science becauese its animating principles are purely ideological. Not a single study done to the present time since the ban of DDT has shown any compelling causal links between thinning egg shells or bird population decline, and these number in the hundreds at this point. Nor is there a shred of conclusive evidence of DDT as a cancer risk, or any other kind of risk. No known human pathology is related to DDT exposure, even in large doses.

As to Boomer heartlessness, you yourself, right here, have cavalierly dismissed the suffering and death of two million men, woman, and children a year in the poorest parts of the earth by pointing out the realtive death toll from other diseases and essentially saying "so what"? You yourself have clearly implied that the lives of Eagles and other birds are of more relative importance than the lvies of children in Nigeria or Zambia. After all, when you look at heart disease, resperatory infections, and AIDS, the maleria toll is rather modest. And anyway, you can walk around and feel good about yourself that you're a good planatary citizen. You care, you're concerned about the environment, and you're doing your part to save the planet and tread lightily upon the earth...no matter who has to suffer so you can continue your self indulgent pseudo intellectual and moral pose.

Gag me with an arc welder.

Loran
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Post by _bcspace »

So, what, that's your solution? Just HOPE that people modify their usage to prevent pollution/erosion? Just HOPE that people decide not to use something because it potentially causes pollution/erosion? You want to rely on the free markets to do this?

You've got a lot of faith man...


No hope is necessary. A true free market has never been wrong. In such a market, the role of government is not to regulate but to incentivize and ensure people make market transactions based on as much information as possible that wil not violate privacy or patents. Also that they pay the true cost of a good or service. People as a whole always choose correctly under such conditions.

Liberals, who always and without exception do not understand economics (wouldn't be liberal if they did), will always skew any economic system so that it does not work.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

bcspace is exactly correct in his assessment of how best to preserve and clean up the envirnonment where actual risks do exist. Want to know why the White Rhino nd Silverback Mountain Gorilla are nearing extinction? Want to know why the endless poaching and decimation of numbers. And the same for the African Elephant? That's easy. Its called the tragedy of the commons, and it occurs each and every time govenrment tries to control, regulate, or, in the case of animal life, remove such life from private onwnership and use.

When nobody onws a resource, nobody has any incentive to preserve or wisely use it. The incentive is to extract as much from the resource as one can before others in the commons extract thier share. Since no one has any economic stake in the preservation of the resource, and all are free to use the commons as they will, the overriding motivation is to use as much of it as possible before its gone.

The problem with, say, endangered animals, is that while traditional peoples have used such creatures and Mountain Gorillas as a resource for thousands of years, affluent western envirnomentalists see such creatures as sacred religious totems, and their traditonal apporoach to conserving them has not been giving the local people around those creatures an economic stake in their preservation and increase, but a "no human use" policy that insures that the only people who do have a huge economic stake in them are poachers, who, like modern drug dealiers, will do just abuot anything to attain the high profits for Rhino horns, and Gorilla fur. The hubris driven western leftist, enamoured of Marxist egalitarianism and romantic neo-primitivist notions of the natural world as an edenic "paradise" spoiled by human presense are not realists seeking a truly workable solution to such problems, but inept and many times, fanatical ideologues who will try to preserve ideological purity at the cost of any real solution to problems.

bc is correct that a truly free market operating under the rule of law will not only preserve but increase the numbers of such creatures by increasing the value they have to the people who live near them and can be given an economic stake in their maintinence. This doesn't do much for the egos of starry eyed western leftist's sense of moral superiority in "saving the planet" and in promoting "social justice" but it is the best answer to such problems.

This is also true for the problems of pollution, overfishing of the oceans, and a host of other byproducts of modern civilization. Creating a commons will end in scarcity, rationing, and ultimately, the destruction of the common stock (or the creation of criminal incentives to destory a resource sealed off from market forces (think the war on drugs, prohibition, Mountain Gorillas etc.). Allowing the market, the profit motive, human creativity, ingenuity, and the entreuprenurial spirity to handle such quandries is, although not perfect (nothing human ever is), far better than the environemtalist approch of command and control, statist regulation and criminalization of the earths resources in the name of dubious ideological imperitives.

Loran
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

bcspace wrote:Liberals, who always and without exception do not understand economics (wouldn't be liberal if they did), will always skew any economic system so that it does not work.


I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that the original liberals were the European bourgeoisie (the middle class business men====the CAPITALISTS!!!). Obviously you know nothing about true (or at least the original version of) liberalism.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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