DAN VOGEL DISCUSSES THE SPALDING/RIGDON THEORY

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_Uncle Dale
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Post by _Uncle Dale »

Dan Vogel wrote:Dale,

Good for you, Dan -- no matter what you may think of me and my work, I am your constant well-wisher and
have no bones to pick with you. I may question you on small matters of detail (a date, a name, etc.) here and
there but I have no reason nor desire to attack and refute your work.


And I wish you no ill will. I hope we all can have a lively discussion without taking it personally.

I'm glad to see that Art has finally jumped into the discussion. I only wish that he will stick with the subject and leave the personal jabs out.

Brent wants me to pass on a message to CK and the rest of you that he has just moved and won't have internet access at his new home for a while.


I'm bowing out of the discussion for a while, Dan. I have personal matters to attend to, and will try pick up the
various loose ends of dialogue when I'm safely back at home again.

Maybe I can take your Joseph Smith bio with me and read it during the electric shock neurology testing -- it might calm
me down a little.

Cheers,
UD
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

EXPERIMENT USING BROADHURST'S WORD-STRING METHODOLOGY

James Fenimore Cooper was America's first successful popular novelist. Son of the prominent federalist William Cooper, founder of the Cooperstown settlement, James was educated at Yale in preparation for a genteel life as a federalist gentleman. After his father's death in an 1809 duel, Cooper quickly squandered his inheritance, and at thirty was on the verge of bankruptcy. He decided to try his hand at writing as a career, carefully modeling his work after Sir Walter Scott's successful Waverley Novels. His first novel, Precaution (1820), a domestic comedy set in England, lost money, but Cooper had discovered his vocation.

Cooper established his reputation after his second novel, The Spy, and in his third book, the autobiographical Pioneers (1823), Cooper introduced the character of Natty Bumppo, a uniquely American personification of rugged individualism and the pioneer spirit. Emerson called Pioneers "our first national novel." A second book featuring Bumppo, The Last of the Mohicans (1826), quickly became the most widely read work of the day, solidifying Cooper's popularity in the U.S. and in Europe.

Set during the French and Indian War, The Last of the Mohicans chronicles the massacre of the colonial garrison at Fort William Henry and a fictional kidnaping of two pioneer sisters. Cooper knew few Indians, so he drew on a Moravian missionary's account of two opposing tribes; the Delawares and the "Mingos." Although this characterization was filled with inaccuracies, the dual image of the opposing tribes allowed Cooper to create a lasting image of the Indian that became a part of the American consciousness for almost two centuries. His public was simultaneously touched romantically at the doomed Indians' fate and justified in abetting their extermination. Readers were thrilled by the rapacious Magua, who fit Gothic convention and was associated with Milton's Satan. The hero Natty Bumppo was incredibly popular; a rebel heroically opposed to industrial society, he was a hero who never married or changed his ideals.

Cooper was a prolific writer, publishing 32 novels, 12 works of nonfiction, a play and numerous pamphlets and articles. His most lasting contributions to American literature were his five books about Natty Bumppo, varying in genre from implausible romantic adventure to realistic narrative. Later anthologized as The Leatherstocking Tales, they are best read in the order written: The Pioneers (1823), The Last of the Mohicans (1826), The Prairie (1827), The Pathfinder (1840), and The Deerslayer (1841). Cooper's popularity declined in his later years as he entered into the nationalistic and partisan disputes of the Jacksonian era, becoming increasingly contentious toward reviewers and the public. His Leatherstocking series, however, retained their preeminence throughout the century until somewhat deflated by Mark Twain's scathing, iconoclastic review of the tales in 1895. The stories, however, continue to maintain a cultural significance in the American literary canon that goes far beyond their literary merit.

--http://www.uwm.edu/Library/special/exhibits/clastext/clspg134.htm


I chose to use Cooper's 1826 Last of the Mohicans found on-line at

http://www.online-literature.com/cooperj/mohicans/


TABULATION FOR COOPER'S LAST OF THE MOHICANS

[numbers are to chapters in Cooper's book]

And it came = 24
came [to] = 2, 3, 12, 15, 20, 21 29, 30, 32
to pass = 5, 8, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21, 25, 26
that they = 3, 6, 7, 9, 10, 13, 14, etc.
[they] did = 21, 28
set = 5, 7, 9, 10, 23, 29, 32, 33
guards = 22, 26
over the = 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, etc.
[the] prisoners = 10, 12, 17, 22
of the = 2, 3, 5, etc.
Lamanites, = 0
and did = 3, 6, 11
compel = 0 ("compelled" only)
them to = 5, 6, 8, 10, etc.
[to] go forth = 7 (... to the battle)
and = ubiquitous
bury = 1, 13, 20, 21, 25
their dead; = 8, 9, 27
yea, = 0
and = ubiquitous
also = ubiquitous
the dead = 5, 13 ("I buried the dead"), 17, 18, etc.
of the = 2, 3, 5, etc.
Nephites = 0
which were = 2, 3, 7, etc.
slain; = 8, 11, 12, etc.
and = ubiquitous
Moroni = 0
placed = 5, 6, 7, etc.
men = 3, 7, 20, etc.
over them = 3, 4
to guard = 17, 22, 24
them = ubiquitous
while they = 24
[they] should = 5, 9, 18, etc.
perform their = 19 ("perform their ungrateful duty")
[their] labors. = 28
And = ubiquitous
Moroni = 0
went to the = 4
[the] city of = 11
Mulek with Lehi, = 0
and took = 3, 5, 9, etc.
command of the = 10, 17, 23
[the] city = 11
and gave = 3, 8, 24, etc.
it = ubiquitous
unto = ubiquitous
Lehi. = 0
Now = ubiquitous
behold = 3, 16, 18
this = ubiquitous
Lehi = 0
was a = 3, 5, etc.
man who had = 33
[who had] been = 1, 3, 18, 22, 27, 31
with = ubiquitous
Moroni = 0
in the more = 15
part of = ("part of his"), 3, 8, 26
[of] all his = 10, 27, 31
[his] battles; = 29
and he was = 11, 12, 25, 33
[was a] = 2, 3, 5, etc.
a man like = 26
unto = ubiquitous
Moroni; = 0
and they = 3, 7, 8, etc.
rejoiced = 16
in each other's = 7
safety; = 2 ("our safety")
yea, = 0
they were = 2, 3, 5, etc.
beloved = 6, 9, 28, 29
by = ubiquitous
each other, and = 29
[and] also = 0
beloved = 6, 9, 28, 29
by all the = 20
[the] people of = 3, 11, 22
Nephi. = 0
And it came to pass = same as above
that after = 13
the Lamanites = 0
had = ubiquitous
finished = 13, 14, 17, etc.
burying = 14
their dead, = 8, 9, 27
and = ubiquitous
also = ubiquitous
the dead of the = 29
Nephites, = 0
they were = 2, 3, 5, etc.
marched = 1
back into the = 5
the land = ("to the land") 17, 20
Bountiful; and Teancum, = 0
by the = 2, 3, 5, etc.
[the] orders of = 1
Moroni, = 0
caused = 15 ("caused them")
that they should = 19
commence = 18, 25
laboring = 21
in digging = 0
a ditch = 14 ("a deep ditch")
round about = 0
the land, = 2, 3, 7, etc.
or the = 3, 5, 20, etc.
[the] city = 11, etc,
Bountiful; = 0
and he = 3, 5, 7, etc.
caused = 2, 3, 5, etc.
that they should = 19
build = 16
a breastwork = 0
of = ubiquitous
timbers = 0
upon the = 5, 7, 9, etc.
[the] inner = ("the inner edge") 13, 33
bank of the = 8, 10, 12,
ditch; = 14, 20
and they = 3, 7, 8, etc.
cast up = 31 ("cast his eyes up")


TABULATION OF WORD-STRINGS

- Book of Solomon [Mormon] Text Color Code Legend -


red text = words found in the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

red underlined = word strings common to the Cooper and the Book of Mormon

blue text = words appearing in the Book of Mormon but not in Cooper



And it came to pass that they did set guards over the prisoners of the Lamanites, and did compel them to go forth and bury their dead; yea, and also the dead of the Nephites which were slain; and Moroni placed men over them to guard them while they should perform their labors. And Moroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi, and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now behold this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles; and he was a man like unto Moroni; and they rejoiced in each other's safety; yea, they were beloved by each other, and also beloved by all the people of Nephi.

And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead, and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city Bountiful; and he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up ...


CONCLUSION

Like Dale, I want to be careful not to assert that this PROVES Cooper's 1826 Last of the Mohicans provided the basis for this section of the Book of Mormon, only that it POSSIBLY COULD HAVE. This is only intended to encourage future researchers to look deeper into these matters, as well as discourage anyone from dismissing this possibility with finality. Of course, many will object and tell me it's a waste of time, but they will only say this because they are afraid that I MIGHT be right.

Sorry, I couldn't resist the parody.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Uncle Dale wrote:
Dan Vogel wrote:Dale,

Good for you, Dan -- no matter what you may think of me and my work, I am your constant well-wisher and
have no bones to pick with you. I may question you on small matters of detail (a date, a name, etc.) here and
there but I have no reason nor desire to attack and refute your work.


And I wish you no ill will. I hope we all can have a lively discussion without taking it personally.

I'm glad to see that Art has finally jumped into the discussion. I only wish that he will stick with the subject and leave the personal jabs out.

Brent wants me to pass on a message to CK and the rest of you that he has just moved and won't have internet access at his new home for a while.


I'm bowing out of the discussion for a while, Dan. I have personal matters to attend to, and will try pick up the
various loose ends of dialogue when I'm safely back at home again.

Maybe I can take your Joseph Smith bio with me and read it during the electric shock neurology testing -- it might calm
me down a little.

Cheers,
UD


Take your time, Dale, and I hope things are not too bad at your end. I will probably deal briefly with your Cowdery post, then I will take a closer look at Art's contribution to the discussion. He has given me plenty to chew on for the next week. Take care, Dale.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_jhammel
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Post by _jhammel »

Dan Vogel wrote:EXPERIMENT USING BROADHURST'S WORD-STRING METHODOLOGY



Dan,

It would be more interesting to me to see your analysis extended to a larger segment of the Book of Mormon (or the entire Book of Mormon) to know if the degree of overlap produced in this short Book of Mormon excerpt using the selected Cooper word strings is uniform, or perhaps just high in seemingly random spikes, or perhaps high in clusters that form a noticable pattern. If it's uniformly high, then reducing the number of word strings should be tried to see if uniformity holds for a generally smaller amount of overlap, since your selection may simply be saturating the Book of Mormon text. If the latter (i.e. the clusters), then I think I might say that portions of the Book of Mormon are more Cooper-ish than others as measured in this crude sense. Especially if a further set of selected word strings revealed a similar pattern. That way, if for whatever reason I did think Cooper may have had some influence on the Book of Mormon, I might have a portion of the Book of Mormon to identify as potentially more influenced in some way than other portions.

Jeff
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

That would take a long time, I'm afraid. I'm very impressed with Dan for doing the single page he did. Thanks, Dan, for putting in the effort.
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Jeff,

It would be more interesting to me to see your analysis extended to a larger segment of the Book of Mormon (or the entire Book of Mormon) to know if the degree of overlap produced in this short Book of Mormon excerpt using the selected Cooper word strings is uniform, or perhaps just high in seemingly random spikes, or perhaps high in clusters that form a noticable pattern. If it's uniformly high, then reducing the number of word strings should be tried to see if uniformity holds for a generally smaller amount of overlap, since your selection may simply be saturating the Book of Mormon text. If the latter (i.e. the clusters), then I think I might say that portions of the Book of Mormon are more Cooper-ish than others as measured in this crude sense. Especially if a further set of selected word strings revealed a similar pattern. That way, if for whatever reason I did think Cooper may have had some influence on the Book of Mormon, I might have a portion of the Book of Mormon to identify as potentially more influenced in some way than other portions.


I chose Cooper because his time, place, and genre were similar to the Book of Mormon's. I think it's a clear indication that Dale's methodology is questionable. This experiment showed me several things:--

1. Dale's word strings at first seemed impressive, but closer examination revealed that his underlined words were not necessarily one word-string but two, three or four word-strings of two, three or four word-strings each from various parts of Spalding's MS.

2. None of Dale's individual word-strings are especially significant. Certainly, none are any more significant than those I found in Cooper, which is surprising since MS Story supposedly provided the basis for MS Found.

3. Dale's method stacks the deck against the Book of Mormon by testing it's limited vocabulary against a more lexically diverse text. Dale might try reversing his method by trying to find the Book of Mormon in Spalding. I think we know what would happen. There would not only be a fairly even distribution, but much of Spalding's distinctive vocabulary and phrasing would remain untouched, while the Book of Mormon's (like "and it came to pass" and "the more part") would not be represented.

4. Dale's method has no way of explaining the result I got from Cooper and telling us why his findings are better. In other words, there is no control for his method. A fluctuation in percentages is not a control. If I were to guess, I would expect the same fluctuation to occur with Cooper as with Spalding in the parts of the Book of Mormon that deal mostly with religious matters.

5. Dale never explains how his method works, and why his method produces significant results.

6. Dale's method distracts from an examination of the over-all differences in style of writing between the Book of Mormon and Spalding's MS. Of course, some of Spalding's witnesses claim he reworked the Book of Mormon to imitate the Bible, but that would imply that whole sections were carried over into Rigdon's MS, that Rigdon also was able to seamlessly imitate Spalding imitating the Bible, not to mention Joseph Smith learning how to integrate his impromptu contributions in a style that was indistinguishable from both Spalding's and Rigdon's. The simpler explanation would be suggested by the fact that Joseph Smith subsequently proves he is quite capable of producing this kind of imitation KJV text. Joseph Smith was so confident about his abilities that he could challenge the most intelligent among his followers to try and duplicate his revelations.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Dan Vogel wrote:...which is surprising since MS Story supposedly provided the basis for MS Found


Dale said above that this is not his position. MS Found, rather, was a different spin on the same idea. It would actually have to be substantially different if it was about Hebrews rather than Romans.

The purpose of Dale's study is not to show plagiarism, but rather vocabulary overlap. He has raw vocabulary overlap, overlap of longer word-strings, and Book of Mormon word print charted out against each other in his 3-part graph. I think he intends the word-print to serve as the "control" you're calling for. And vocabulary overlap (or "vocabulary richness" at it is technically called) is a fairly well-established means of authorship attribution. Dale's word-string study, if it were computerized and standardized, could serve as a sort of additional layer of complexity in measuring vocabulary richness, since it would tend to detect common idiom as well as common words. I agree that as it stands it is the weakest link (hailing from the age before computers), but the addition of the other two corroborating components would tend to bolster its credibility a little, don't you think?

What is impressive to me is not the raw data, but the corresponding patterns that emerge when one uses these three methods in concert. I am very interested in seeing the wordprint study when it eventually is published.

-CK
_Dan Vogel
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Post by _Dan Vogel »

Dale,

DID OLIVER COWDERY DELIVER THE SPALDING-RIGDON MS TO JOSEPH SMITH IN HARMONY?

This seems to be a necessary part of the Spalding theory. How else could Joseph Smith replace the lost 116 pages without Rigdon getting a replacement text to him in some manner? In this way, the theory become ever more cumbersome as it must multiply ad hoc assumptions to stay afloat. However, like Pratt's bringing the Book of Mormon to Rigdon, Cowdery meets Joseph Smith through a series of fortuitous events. It seems to me that Spalding advocates must deal with several key issues:--

1. If Cowdery's mission was to deliver Rigdon's revised MS to Joseph Smith, then why did he stop in Manchester and teach school during the winter of 1828-29?

2. Cowdery's meeting the Smiths and learning about the plates was by chance encounter with the Smiths in his capacity as a teacher in the district where Hyrum was the superintendent and a boarder at their home.

3. If Cowdery has the MS and already knows about the plates, why does he pursue Joseph Smith Sr. to tell him about them?

4. If Cowdery was an accomplice, why does he want to try his hand at translation?

5. If Cowdery had just delivered Rigdon's MS, why does the content of Mosiah seem to reflect aspects of Smith and Cowdery's relationship?

These are some of the issues to which Dale attempted to responded. But note that--as with Pratt--Dale's thesis interprets or dismisses the source, rather than the other way round.

If Cowdery is Rigdon's accomplice, why does he stop with the Smith's for the winter to teach school?

Like Parley P. Pratt's story, it was rather fortuitous that Cowdery's brother Lyman suggested to
Hyrum Smith that his brother teach in the Manchester school. It was also fortuitous for the Smiths
to offer Cowdery room and board -- by which means he was able to learn about the plates and get an
introduction to Joseph Jr.


Unfortunately all of this comes from a single source and is not reliable history. Until more confirmation
can be located in other old (preferrably older than the 1850s) sources, the choronology of events here
is provisional, at best.


Are you saying Cowdery didn't stop with the Smiths in Manchester and teach school? In 1845, Lucy recalled the circumstances of meeting Oliver for the first time about September 1828.

Soon after we returned there came a man into our neighborhood by the name of Lyman Cowdray[.] he went to Hyrum (as he was one of the principle trustees) and applied for the school. It was settled that he should have it and the terms were agreed upon--But the next day he brought his brother Oliver and requested them to receive him in the place of himself as buisness had arisen that would oblige him to disapoint them but he would warrant the prosperity and Good conduct of the school in oliver's hands if the trustees would accept of his services--All parties were satisfied and Oliver requested my husband to take him as a boarder at least for a little while untill he should become acquainted with his patrons in the school.

--Lucy Smith, "Preliminary Manuscript," 90, Frags. 1-10, LDS Church Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah. (EMD 1:373)


Lucy's history is not flawless, but it is generally accurate. She worked closely with Martha Coray on the MS, and is essentially a firsthand account. So I would be cautious about brushing it off as "not reliable history." Even if some of the details are inaccurate, she is not mistaken about Cowdery teaching school in Manchester and living with them in their home.

Cowdery's teaching school in Manchester was remembered by Ezra Pierce (EMD 2:84), John H. Gilbert (86, 546), Lorenzo Saunders (134, 213), and Oliver's step-sister, Lucy P. Young (397). John Stafford said Cowdery taught school in his house (87, 122-23). Sylvia Walker said: "I attended school to Oliver Cowdery with Carlos, Sam Bill, Catherine, and Lucy Smith" (190). Christopher Stafford said: "Oliver Cowdery taught school one winter" (194).

It was while living with the Smiths that Cowdery learned about the plates, and began asking questions about them. Lucy recalled:--

He had not been in the place long till he began to hear about the plates from all quarters and immediately he commenced importuneing Mr. Smith upon the subject but he did not succeed in eliciting any information from him for a long time. At length however he gained My husbands confidence so far as to get a sketch of the facts which relates to the plates [p. 90] (EMD 1:374)



It does not make sense that Lyman, who had an occupation of his own in the Lyons/Arcadia area, would have
gone so far afield as Manchester seeking part-time work, and leaving his family behind. So, I question the
notion that Lyman was first contracted to teach school in Manchester and then backed out, allowing his younger
brother to fill in for him. On the other hand, Mother Smith knew very well who Lyman was, since he soon after was in court, "persecuting" the earliest Mormons on behalf of Lucy Harris. Mother Smith may have some wires crossed here.


Lucy did know Lyman, so perhaps she knew things that made his employment as a teacher less perplexing. At most, you have unanswered questions. I think you exaggerate when you say he would have had to leave his family since Arcadia was the next township over from Palmyra. From the school house on the Canandaigua Road to Newark was less than ten miles, which on horseback would have been no problem.

Lyman was no stranger to the Palmyra/Manchester area. An entry in Cains C. Robinson's Day Book for 17 March 1825 provides evidence that he had visited Palmyra as early as 1825. Lucy Harris was familiar enough with him to hire him in March 1829 (a month before Oliver went to Harmony to meet Joseph Smith) to prosecute Joseph Smith in absentia. Lucy says Mrs. Harris "sent word to Lyman Cowdray requesting him to Come to Lyons ..." (EMD 1:383). Between 1833 and 1836, he moved the Manchester. Arcadia was the next township over from Palmyra, so it's not like he would have had to leave his family.

Regardless of exactly how Oliver got the job teaching, the fact remains that he did teach in Manchester during the winter of 1828-29.

On your site you reproduce the Western Argus for 7 Nov. 1832, why Lyman states that in "in the year 1828 I was appointed Marshal of the Court Marshal of the 39th regiment of Infantry, of which Col. Ambrose Salisbury was President"--which could be the reason for changing his mind about teaching. Yet, you observe in a note:--

Note: Lyman Cowdery, Esq. was one of Oliver Cowdery's older brothers. At this point in time he was living near Newark, in Arcadia township, Wayne county, NY, where he served as a lawyer, a constable, a marshal, and a minor judge of the County Court. It seems unrealistic to suppose that Lyman would have agreed to abandon this line of work to become a school teacher in Manchester township, Ontario County, for the 1828-29 winter term. However, it is indeed possible that Lyman used his social and political contacts in the Palmyra area to arrange for his brother, Oliver Cowdery, to be employed in that position during that period.

--http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/wayn1832.htm


So, despite your skepticism regarding the exact nature of Lyman's involvment, you seem to understand that Oliver's introduction to the Manchester school district was a fortuitous event, which poses a problem for you theory.

David Whitmer (and others) say that Oliver was previously (1826-27?) a school-teacher in the Fayette/Waterloo
area. He was receiving mail nearby during that period, so it may well be that Oliver was already a teacher in
the area. This possibility should be checked out --- but do not expect Richard L. Anderson or Scott Faulring to divulge any of their findings on the subject very soon --- I doubt there will be much additional information in the Cowdery
volume due out from BYU later this year, as it will mostly reprise the "vanilla" Cowdery symposium papers.


I'm not sure how this possibility contradicts Lucy's account.

Lorenzo Saunders recalled Oliver having taught the winter before (1827-28?) at the next school-house south of
the Manchester school near the Smiths. If true, this would have put Oliver in the Stafford family's money-digging
realm (see Bushman). It is altogether possible that Oliver's divining rod skills brought him into contact with
both the Staffords of southern Geauga Co., Ohio and the much closer money-digging Staffords of Manchester, NY.
At least these things ought to be investigated. It is possible that additional sources mentioning Oliver in NY in
the 1820s may yet turn up.


The Saunders account to which you allude is problematic. In his interview with Kelley on 17 Sept. 1884, he said that Cowdery "took school near us, taught three <or four> days, then got an other teacher to take his place and he went over to write for Joe" (EMD 2:134). This part was deleted for the signed affidavit, dated 20 Sept. 1884. Saunders gave the following similar statement to Thomas Gregg in 1885:--

As respecting Oliver Cowdery, he came from Kirtland in the summer of 1826 and was about there [in Manchester] until fall [1826] and took a school in the district where the Smiths lived and the next summer [1827] he was missing and I didn't see him until fall [1827] and he came back and took our school in the district where we lived and taught about a week and went to the schoolboard and wanted the board to let him off and they did and he went to Smith and went to writing the Book of Mormon and wrote all winter. The Mormons say it want [was not] wrote there but I say it was because I was there.

--LORENZO SAUNDERS TO THOMAS GREGG, 28 JANUARY 1885, in Charles A. Shook, The True Origin of the Book of Mormon (Cincinnati, Ohio: Standard Publishing Co., [1914]), 134-35. (EMD 3:176)


The first thing to notice is that Saunders claims Cowdery wrote for Joseph Smith in Manchester, rather than in Harmony and Fayette. Saunders' memory seems a little fuzzy after about 50 years. So, he needs some help. Most likely Saunders observed Cowdery preparing the printer's MS at the Smith's home in Manchester.


Cowdery probably began copying the manuscript near the beginning of July. Printing began in August 1829, and Joseph Smith left Manchester to return to Harmony near the end of September. Apparently, had reached Alma 36 by 6 November 1829 (see III.G.2, OLIVER COWDERY TO JOSEPH SMITH, 6 NOV 1829). It is possible that Cowdery tried to resume his teaching for the winter session of 1829-30. Whether or not this is correct, Saunders tries to link Cowdery's second teaching with his copying of the printer's MS, which makes his first teaching during the winter 1828-29. So, apparently, Saunders is dating events two years too early (which, incidentally, probably also explains some of his confusion about when Rigdon first came to Palyra). When one makes this adjustment, then Saunders basically follows traditional chronology by having Cowdery come in the "summer" of 1828 (instead of 1826), taking a teaching job in the fall (and therefore through the winter of 1829-30). The next "summer" (1829) Saunders says Cowdery was "missing", which corresponds to his being in Harmony and Fayette until the end of June 1829. Then Saunders says he saw Cowdery again in the "fall" of 1829.

If Cowdery brought a revised MS with him containing a rewrite of the lost 116 pages (which according to
Criddle included Rigdon's new Walter Scott-inspired theology), why did Cowdery want to try his hand at
translation only to fail?


Again, this is a single-source account originating with Smith and Cowdery themselves. If there was a conspiracy
in process, involving the two of them, we cannot simply take their word as being the unvarnished truth. I think
it would be better to try and find out exactly what Cowdery's "translation" efforts consisted of. According to some
experts, he drafted the 1835 D&C section on monogamous marriage, as well as the earlier EMS/BoC section on
the Articles of the Church. Did Cowdery himself write any of the Book of Mormon text? I would not close the door too fast
upon that possibility.


You confuse me. You begin by doubting OC's attempt at translation. Then you speculate about his possibly adding material to the Book of Mormon. You even try to support this theory by reference to Cowdery's authoring the section on marriage in the 1835 D&C, which wasn't a revelation any more than were the 1834 minutes of the organization of the Kirtland High Council (D&C 102; 1835 Sec. V), or Lectures on Faith. Nor is his 1829 revelation an indication that he was a conspirator any more than Hiram Page's revelations. D&C 9 implies that he tried and failed--"Now, if you had known this you could have translated."

As for Cowdery serving as a middle-man between Rigdon and Smith, that is pure speculation. It may be true,
but until some sort of reliable evidence surfaces in support of that idea, it cannot be relied upon as history.


Well, we agree about something. But this raises the question--How did Rigdon get his replacement text to Joseph Smith, either in Harmony or Fayette?

However, if Cowdery was involved in writing/editing some of the O-MS, (or even attempted to offer some
contribution that was refused) such a possible involvment on his part neither negates nor demonstrates another
contribution from Rigdon. The better "contra" argument in this case would be that Cowdery's "word-print" has
yet to be conclusively shown within the Book of Mormon text; and that, even if there were such indications, conspiracy
theories grow exponentially more improbable with the addition of each new conspirator after the first two.


Again, I agree with you here. So you would seem to disagree with Shades and Criddle about Cowdery's involvement. But without Cowdery's help, how did Rigdon get the replacement MS to Smith after the loss of the 116 pages?

When Smith and Cowdery sit down to translate, why does the text seem to reflect issues emanating from their
new relationship--rather than from Rigdon's world?


Probably so, because that was exactly the situation -- much of the provisionally "identifiable" material does
"seem to reflect issues emanating from their... world," and that should tells that theirs was the final redaction
of the narrative. None of which rules out an underlying contribution from Rigdon. It would be useful if some
investigator were to tabulate the purported Rigdonite contributions and the purported NY/PA-originating
stuff in the book. But that would call for a "fancy chart" and the results could be summarily dismissed over a
quibble about some "more part" of the text, I suppose.


If you think the "final redaction" came from Joseph Smith, then Spalding and Rigdon become unnecessary.

This last point needs some background. In my analysis of the Book of Mormon, there seems to be an interweaving of
the Book of Mormon's text with Joseph Smith's ongoing experiences in Harmony.


I think that is very possible. A student at my wife's highschool wrote a novelette called "Huck Finn in Hawaii."
She used a couple of chapters of the basic Mark Twain story, but changed the setting to Hawaii and interjected
a bunch of local culture and events from her own family life. The results were not terribly good, but then again
not too bad for a 13-year-old. I suspect that something along these same lines could have been accomplished
by Smith and Cowdery, working from a pre-existing source, which they had "permission" to edit to some extent.


Well, if that was how the Book of Mormon was put together, then it wouldn't have been very good either. If Rigdon was needed because Joseph Smith's talents weren't up to the task, then his contributions would stand out like a college freshman trying to plagiarize parts of a term paper.

...I have argued that this pre-Cowdery dictation was probably limited to King Benjamin's three-part speech.
The following is a probable reconstruction... Appealing to a sense of guilt for inadequacy, which was both
universally applicable and particularly relevant to Harris’’s loss of the manuscript, Benjamin declares:
““For behold, are we not all beggars? ... And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name,
and begging for a remission of your sins”” (Mos. 4:19, 20). The speech becomes even more specific: ““And
I would that ye should remember, that whosoever among you should return the thing that he borroweth,
according as he doth agree, or else thou shalt commit sin; and perhaps thou shalt cause thy neighbor to
commit sin also”” (v. 28). In most cases, it is the borrower who bears the guilt, but in this case the lender is provoked to sin as well (D&C 3:9).


All of which falls outside of the "Spaldingish" sections of the text -- and probably also outside of the Rigdonite
sections. Spalding was dead and could not have crafted the "contemporary" additions. Rigdon was probably
far away, and his imput in creating "contemporary" stuff is problematic but not impossible. Smith and Cowdery
were on the scene and are the most likely of the "likely suspects" for such stuff (assuming it to be an addition).


But your Spalding witnesses said the historical parts were just as Spalding had written. It is a historical section of the Book of Mormon we are talking about. Why immediately set the Rigdon-Spalding MS aside and begin dictating your own text? Doesn't it follow that if Joseph Smith can dictate this text, as well as the replacement text of 1 Nephi to Words of Mormon, that he doesn't need Rigdon? And how could he do it in a way that flawlessly matches Rigdon's language. If you think Joseph Smith redacted Rigdon's writing, then why have such an unnecessary and massive conspiracy at all? I Rigdon could do it without Joseph Smith, why would he pick someone with such a bad reputation to bring forth his book in a folk magical manner? Doesn't make any sense either way.

April 1829 -- Oliver Cowdery and Samuel Smith arrive at Harmony... [and the Book of Mormon translation is then] virtually
paralleling Joseph’’s own story of translating the gold plates and their history of a lost race, Ammon’’s words to
Limhi include subtle responses to Joseph’’s immediate environment. Ammon’’s words also helped to define the relationship between Smith and Cowdery. Shortly after the new scribe’’s arrival, it became apparent to Smith
that Cowdery had come with his own competent gifts, one of which was working with a divining rod. Perhaps through Ammon’’s exchange with Limhi, Joseph was asserting the superiority of his gift over that of Cowdery’’s, as if to say that ““a seer is greater than a rodworker.”” ... D&C 6 ... D&C 7 ... etc....


Indeed --- much of your interpretation of things at this point may be right "on the money," but that does not
mean that you have uncovered the full story.

Were I you, Dan, I'd hold open at least the slender possibility that there is more to the story than that,
and that (perish the thought!) you may even be wrong in a few of your historical re-interpretations.

Allow a .000001% chance for a pre-Dec. 1830 Rigdon contact, and you'll have no enemy in me.

It is when you get so adament that you are so correct that you can summarily dismiss alternative possibilities,
that I lose patience with you.


I haven't summarily dismissed the Spalding theory. I have given what I think are very cogent reasons for rejecting it. Of course, I can't say that all my interpretations of the text are "on the money," but I think the text makes more sense coming from Joseph Smith, than from Rigdon or Spalding. All Spalding advocates can do is point to a few general doctrines that sound like Rigdon's pre-1830 teachings. But Joseph Smith's biography explains all them and more. If Rigdon somehow got a replacement text to Joseph Smith, why is it about a family that is divided over religion, specifically the meaning of the father's dreams? Why is one of those dreams like one of Joseph Sr.'s?
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

If you think Joseph Smith redacted Rigdon's writing, then why have such an unnecessary and massive conspiracy at all?


One reason the theory is interesting to me is that the Hilton wordprint study does indicate that part of Nephi and part of Alma had different authors. I'm still looking for a decent explanation for that, and the Spalding-Rigdon hypothesis holds out some promise, mostly cause the Hilton study ignores Sidney Rigdon (which seems a curious omission).

-CK
_marg

quick question

Post by _marg »

I don't seem to be able to find this on the Net. With regards to the existing printer's manuscript ..what does the evidence indicate for the number of different scribes and who are they? I know Oliver Cowdery is the main one, but who else helped copy from the original manuscript to the printer's copy? Thanks
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