We have been rebuked for our inequities

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:35 pm

The Dude wrote:The only reason I posted is because I saw Chaos was on the thread, and I thought for sure it was about to be closed... guess I scared him back into his hole. So I guess this means six more weeks of winter.

I saw that post...great contribution :)

Post by **_moksha** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:47 pm

Runtu wrote:Thanks to all of you, I haven't wasted much time on it. And I don't plan to.

I think it has been one of the most interesting threads at MAD for some time. If nothing else, it gives you some true insight into some of the people over there - Dr. Peterson in particular.

Post by **_Runtu** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:50 pm

moksha wrote:
Runtu wrote:Thanks to all of you, I haven't wasted much time on it. And I don't plan to.

I think it has been one of the most interesting threads at MAD for some time. If nothing else, it gives you some true insight into some of the people over there - Dr. Peterson in particular.

I don't know. Four years over there gave me a pretty good idea of who they are. For the record, I don't think any of them are "bad people" but there are some personalities I'd rather not deal with.

Post by **_Runtu** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:07 pm

I popped over there just now. Wade's there, apparently. Maybe I'll stick around long enough to see what he says.

Edit: Oh, and asbestosman is there too. It's a little frustrating to see such inanity and not be able to post. Oh, well. Must resist the urge to hang out there.

Post by **_beastie** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:07 pm

I have to admit I don't understand why so many exmo's are fascinated with DCP. He's frequently mentioned over on RFM, and yes, some of the attacks are personal, juvenile, pointlessly ugly. It seems that he has become some sort of personification of LDS apologetics. I don't get it. I don't think the quality of his apologia, at least what I've read in interacting with him, is worth all the attention. He really isn't that good. Is he producing vast amounts of apologia, and that's why he gets so much attention? Or maybe it's the adoration and devotion so many TBMs show him online?

What is it about him that merits this position in the exmo "hall of infamy"? It can't just be producing bad apologia, there's so much of it produced by so many. Is it that he can't stay away from online boards and hence, people know if they pick at him he'll read it?

Post by **_Who Knows** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:18 pm

beastie wrote:Is it that he can't stay away from online boards and hence, people know if they pick at him he'll read it?

I think that's it. He's probably the most 'famous' on the FAIR/MAD board. And people know that he's reading what they say (i'm less likely to pick on someone who's never even going to see/read the post anyways). And they know he likes to put quotes from critics in his sigline.

Post by **_moksha** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:28 pm

beastie wrote:I have to admit I don't understand why so many exmo's are fascinated with DCP. He's frequently mentioned over on RFM, and yes, some of the attacks are personal, juvenile, pointlessly ugly. It seems that he has become some sort of personification of LDS apologetics. I don't get it. I don't think the quality of his apologia, at least what I've read in interacting with him, is worth all the attention. He really isn't that good. Is he producing vast amounts of apologia, and that's why he gets so much attention? Or maybe it's the adoration and devotion so many TBMs show him online?

What is it about him that merits this position in the exmo "hall of infamy"? It can't just be producing bad apologia, there's so much of it produced by so many. Is it that he can't stay away from online boards and hence, people know if they pick at him he'll read it?

My guess is that his position alone as Chief-Apologist-and-Bottle-Washer, puts him in a lightning rod position for criticism. I doubt it is his mustache that draws RfMs ire.

Is there any way we could encourage Mr. Scratch and Dr. Peterson to get together for some donuts and hot chocolate? Wouldn't the world be a better place for that? Maybe even get us out of that mess in Iraq or something. Just a thought....

Post by **_gramps** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:33 pm

beastie wrote:I have to admit I don't understand why so many exmo's are fascinated with DCP. He's frequently mentioned over on RFM, and yes, some of the attacks are personal, juvenile, pointlessly ugly. It seems that he has become some sort of personification of LDS apologetics. I don't get it. I don't think the quality of his apologia, at least what I've read in interacting with him, is worth all the attention. He really isn't that good. Is he producing vast amounts of apologia, and that's why he gets so much attention? Or maybe it's the adoration and devotion so many TBMs show him online?

What is it about him that merits this position in the exmo "hall of infamy"? It can't just be producing bad apologia, there's so much of it produced by so many. Is it that he can't stay away from online boards and hence, people know if they pick at him he'll read it?

Also, Beastie, a lot of the ex-mo crowd, before they were ex-mo went to FAIR for help and ran into Daniel C. Peterson, and came away quite unimpressed, to put it mildly.

They like him even less after the light has fully turned on and they can see the deception of apologetics. He has become the lightning rod for all that anger. Being told that they are sinners or lazy by the apologists and others on the former FAIR board doesn't help the situation, I'm sure.

Post by **_beastie** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:36 pm

Is there any way we could encourage Mr. Scratch and Dr. Peterson to get together for some donuts and hot chocolate? Wouldn't the world be a better place for that? Maybe even get us out of that mess in Iraq or something. Just a thought....

Don't bring up the mess in Iraq or I shall rise up out of this computer screen and shake you good. I come here to FORGET that kind of garbage. ;)

Seriously, for just one moment, when "opponents" from online boards meet in real life, it tends to mellow out the personal attacks. There's just something about a face, about body signals, that we humans seem to need. The internet brings out the worst in many people, including myself.

There was just an article about this very thing today:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17707922/

Being as enamored of Robert Wright as I am, it brings to mind his theory from The Moral Animal. Part of the impetus to behave well is to be SEEN behaving well, and having positive "chits", so to speak, from our tribe. They see us as trustworthy, decent, worthy of a good turn back. It's long been noted that larger cities tend to lose some of that politeness, and it has to do with the anonymity of the crowd. Even people who post under their real names aren't posting to people with whom they interact in real life every day, so they can "afford" to be nastier. It's an interesting phenomenon, and watching it, while discouraging at times, is part of the reason internet communications interest me. It's like watching a live little laboratory in which Robert Wright's theories are demonstrated to be remarkably accurate again and again!

Post by **_beastie** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:40 pm

Also, Beastie, a lot of the ex-mo crowd, before they were ex-mo went to FAIR for help and ran into Daniel C. Peterson, and came away quite unimpressed, to put it mildly.

They like him even less after the light has fully turned on and they can see the deception of apologetics. He has become the lightning rod for all that anger. Being told that they are sinners or lazy by the apologists and others on the former FAIR board doesn't help the situation, I'm sure.

Now that is very true. DCP couldn't resist dabbling in just that on the thread in question, when he said that scratch isn't just one person, but "legion".

I have pointed this out before whenever TBMs start ranting about how mean exmo's are. If healing is ever going to occur between these two communities, the church will have to take the step of ceasing their teachings about apostates being inspired by satan, lazy, wanting to sin, etc. We see that repeated on MAD, albeit usually in subtler fashions, quite a bit. When I first started talking online to believers, my goal was to help them understand one thing - that, even if one still has faith, LDS believers should be able to recognize that there are very troubling issues connected with LDS claims that can cause sincere, decent people to lose faith. I failed utterly in that regard. The people who "got it" already got it before I started. The people who didn't never will. Oh, some claim to get it, but their words betray them.