Journal of Discourses - Isn't it scripture anymore?

[_Jason Bourne]

Yes, it is the Ensign, including talks given over the pulpit in the tabernacle during conference. Most believers I know consider the Conference edition of the Ensign to be scripture.

This is one of my favorite topics, besides polygamy.

The Conference talks are scripture for today. Apologists will tell you nothing is except the standard works but there have been prophets who have stated Conference is modern day scripture and is MORE important than anything we read because it's for our day. I will have to hunt those statements down. Calling Rollo for help!

The talk below is not in total but excerpt. by the way, I have read the Pres Kimball was not happy about this speech by ETB.



http://www.lds-mormon.com/fourteen.shtml

FOURTEEN FUNDAMENTALS IN FOLLOWING THE PROPHET
BY
ELDER Ezra Taft Benson
February 26, 1980

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtiand in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living oracles and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: "You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them."

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, "Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God." Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: "There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now," said he, "when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth." [in Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18-19)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

The living prophet has the power of TNT. By that I mean "Todays News Today." God's revelations to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore, the most important prophet, so far as you and I are concerned, is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore, the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each week in the Church Section of the Deseret News, and any words of the prophet contained each month in our Church magazines. Our marching orders for each six months are found in the general conference addresses, which are printed in the Ensign magazine.

I am so grateful that the current conference report is studied as part of one of your religion classes--the course entitied "Teachings of the Living Prophets," number 333. May I commend that class to you, and suggest that you get a copy of the class manual at your bookstore, whether you're able to take the class or not. The manual is entitled "Living Prophets for a Living Church."

Beware of those who would pit the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel, but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, "Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you" (D&C 21:4).

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states: "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed".

Said Brigham Young, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture" (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot], 13:95).

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.



Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning. There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelations of God and the reasoning of men--between the prophet and the politician or professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith, "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire" (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter--temporal or spiritual.

Said Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.



I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. if we want to know how well we stand with the Lord, then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain. How closely do our lives harmonize with the words of the Lord's anointed--the living prophet, the President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency?

May God bless us all to look to the prophet and the presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead, is my prayer. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[_Mephitus]

GBH in a newpaper interview on the subject of modern revelation

President Gordon B. Hinckley himself answered Don Lattin of The San Francisco Chronicle as follows:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.

Now, if a problem should arise on which we don't have an answer, we pray about it, we may fast about it, and it comes. Quietly. Usually no voice of any kin, but just a perception in the mind.

[_grampa75]

It is referenced in all currently accepted church publications (although the word "women" is generally replaced with "woman").

"Special Witnesses" quote from it on a regular basis.

But the Stake President warned me to stop reading between the quotes.



So what is it? What isn't it?


Is pinning down it's accurate description like trying to describe the taste of salt?

I believe personally that you have brought up two good subjects. First I don't believe any Stake President has the right to ask you not to study any book or reach your own conclusions on that book. And second it is scripture that we are commanded by God to search for mysteries and there are more mysteries in "Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses" than any 26 books I have ever read.

I can't say that all the entries are scipture but I'm not the one to judge whether they are or not and neither is the Stake President. The Holy Spirit is the only member of the Godhead that reveals to us the mysteries of God. Let me give you the scripture in regards to God commanding us to search for scriptures:

Doctrine and Covenants 6: 11 If thou wilt inquire thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift that thou mayest find out mysteries; that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.

I would also like to write down some verses that teach us who is suposed to understand all things and who their teacher should be:

1 John 2: 27 The anointing which you have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you. But the same anointing teacheth you of all things and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

St. John 8: 31 If you continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed.
32. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

D & C 93: 24 And truth is the knowledge of things as they were, as they are, and as they are to come.

Moroni 10: 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

The members of the Church of Jesus Christ can never be deceived because everything we are taught, that is true, we will have at least two to witness of its divinity but one of those witnesses would have to be the Holy Ghost. Man himself can lead us astray no matter who that person may be or the good intentions he has in regards to what he or she is teaching.

There are many more verses suggesting that the Holy Spirit is our only teacher and the directives HE provides us just cannot be wrong.

grampa75

[_skippy the dead]

You might also want to provide the link to the particular MAD discussion lest any be tempted to go out of context.

MAD has a block on us being able to link to specific threads. It would be a good idea, though, to find the title of the thread, and the appropriate date it was started so that posters here can find it easily.

But it's so terribly easy to get around!

First, you need to be using Firefox (anything else is simply barbaric). Then, type in about:config in the address window.

In the Filter window, start typing: network.http.sendRefererHeader

Double click on it and set the integer value to 0 (that's a zero).

Firefox won't send your referer header information (which is how MAD blocks links from sites like this one).

Makes things much easier, and we don't have to worry about their juvenile tricks.

Everybody give it a try!

[_grampa75]

It is referenced in all currently accepted church publications (although the word "women" is generally replaced with "woman").

"Special Witnesses" quote from it on a regular basis.

But the Stake President warned me to stop reading between the quotes.



So what is it? What isn't it?


Is pinning down it's accurate description like trying to describe the taste of salt?

I feel a strong feeling that I should mention one other small piece of advice; We may know all truth though the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but that information should only be for your own personal relationship with the Lord. You might be able to tell your family, but then when your family hears what they are taught in Church, it may just be the cause for them to apostatize at some later time. Let me quote you this verse:

Ecclesiastes 1: 18 For in much wisdom is muuch grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

I know so much more than what I am called upon to teach. But every person has the ability to have the companionship of the Holy Spirit and it is God's intent to inspirie them to want that companionship with HIM. Allow them that right.

Isaiah 5: My people have gone astray because they have no knowledge, therefore hell hath enlarged herself and gapped open her mouth without measure.

At the same time we are taught that we shall ALL become as perfect as the Savior is before the Lord puts out the fire of the furnace and cleaning up the dross.

grampa75

[_dilettante]

I would guess there are some parallels between the early Roman Christian (The Church) and the LDS church. It was doctrine in medieval times to correct attitudes and behavior using torture.

Non-canonical is an escape mechanism. If canon could be changed, it probably would have been.

[_Inconceivable]

My understanding is that the Journal of Discourses is not considered canonized scripture. It is a resource, but not scripture. The Journal of Discourses addresses the Saints during that time period going through those particular struggles, and the counsel given is unique to them.

This is the apologist answer (or pretty close to it...I'm sure that Gaz or BC will correct me if I'm wrong here).

What I find intriguing is your very valid point on one of the other threads. (Sorry, I can't remember which one).

You asked the question, "Wasn't the Journal of Discourses the Ensign of that time frame?"

I hadn't heard this phrased quite this way, but you're exactly right.

That would mean that the Ensign is OUR Journal of Discourses.

Interesting to think about. That means that the instruction given in the Ensign is considered "scripture" for us, but may not be considered "scripture" for Church members in the future, just like the JoD is not considered scripture to us.

Thoughts, anyone?

Thanks Liz. This was the quote (in the plural families thread):

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 1:38)

Accepted doctrine of the Mormon church states that words spoken by the "prophets, seers and revelators", particularly at General Conference, are "the mind and will of the Lord" and considered as scripture for the general church membership.

This scripture can be accessed from the Semiannual Conference Reports - every Mormon knows these can be found twice a year in the Ensign.

Fact: The Journal of Discourses was the Ensign of the 1800's. It was a compilation of semiannual conference reports (and a few added discourses by these "special witnesses"). Regardless of whether it is milk or meat, it is Mormon scripture (my humble opinion is that it more of a tribute to Warren Jeffs).

[_Inconceivable]

I bought that when he spoke it. My wife also bore us one of our awesome children about 9-11 months after he gave the "To the Fathers in Israel" talk in General Priesthood meeting ("..let the children come naturally.."). Man, were the nurseries full for a couple years.

Sure. The current president Trump's the others. But how can you Trump eternal truth - How is that done? I mean, is Adam majorly upset now that he is not our father? That black dude that married the white chick doesn't have to die "on the spot" now? Is blood atonement dormant, expunged or just done in secret now? Current issues, Doctrine of both?

Run this through damage control central:

The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.
President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Vol.8.

1. Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.
Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.

It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.
President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Vol.18.

We take great pleasure in presenting to the Saints and the world the … the JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, which they will find contains rich treasures of information concerning the glorious principles of Eternal Life, as revealed through God’s anointed servants in these last days. All who read the discourses contained in this Volume are earnestly recommended to adapt them to their lives by practice, and we can confidently assure them that, in doing so, they are laying up a store of knowledge that will save and exalt them in the Celestial kingdom.
Apostle Albert Carrington, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Vol. 15.

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

[_Gazelam]

Whats the problem here? I have no problem with the Journal of Discources. I use quotes from it all the time here.

Heres one:
"With us the Bible is the first book, the Book of Mormon comes next, then the revelations in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, then the teachings of the living oracles" - Brigham Young, JD 9:297, May 25, 1862

Whats the cause of all the hubbub?

[_dilettante]

I don't think we should start quoting from the JOD... it may never end.