First, I agree with Richard. People form opinions about boards based on how they were treated there. When you post on MAD, you normally are supportive of the LDS viewpoint, with some exceptions. You are adamant in your witness of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and you just can’t be viewed as the outright “enemy” with this stance. You cannot experience MAD in the same way that Richard or I, or any other outright critic, experience it. On the very first thread I participated on, Juliann repeatedly called me a liar and a plagiarist, without the slightest justification. Later, another mod cleaned up her posts by deleting the name-calling, but no action was taken against her. Ever since we first began interacting on Z, her behavior has been consistent –rude, and dismissive in an often completely unwarranted fashion. I am certainly not the only critic to be subjected to this behavior. When it first happened at Z, I asked another believer who knew Juliann well but was far more mellow in her interactions, what was going on, more or less. Her response led me to believe that this is a deliberate choice on Juliann’s part, that somehow she is exposing the true nature of critics. This has nothing to do with Mormonism in general, although I think it does in Juliann’s eyes. It has to do with the internet personality Juliann has constructed. I mentioned this on the previous thread as well. And yes, after experiencing such frustration, critics do vent about her.
What I wanted to know was how you connected venting about specific LDS personalities to real life potential to violence against Mormons. I still don’t quite understand. In your response, you said:
My comments were not specifically meant to imply only possible violence against Juliann or Dan, but Mormons in general.
Then you cited examples of threats of violence against Mormons that have nothing to do with people ranting about their experience with Dan or Juliann. But then you say this:
What I am saying is that the continuation of this obsessiveness can lead unstable minds to hate a person, and that in turn can lead to violent behaviour "in the flesh", by unstable people.
Now you do seem to be saying that there could be a direct connection between the rants of certain critics about DCP and Juliann to actual violence in the flesh. What are you saying exactly? Are you saying unstable exmormons who rant about DCP or Juliann are then going to attack real life Mormons? Or are unstable exmormons who read the rants about DCP or Juliann going to attack real life Mormons? Not DCP or Juliann in particular, just Mormons in general.
I think this is a wildly unwarranted speculative leap in logic. The equivalent would be me insisting that due to the fact that many Mormon posters often make comments that link apostates to Satan is an omen that one day some unstable Mormon will act upon those comments, and attack an apostate in real life.
When you talk about how much better behaved LDS are, I have two reactions. One is that you wouldn’t be saying that if you had ever served as a moderator on Z like I did. Even the LDS moderators admitted that LDS misbehaved just as much as, and sometimes more than, the critics. They felt this was due to the fact that LDS feel personally attacked when their religion is attacked, which is true. The second is connected to what I said earlier – you’re not an outright critic, and never have been. As long as you remain firm in your testimony of the Book of Mormon, and even the truth of the LDS church, just stating that it is your CHOICE not to engage in it, although you recognize, to a certain extent, its truthfulness, you will never have the experience of a critic on one of these boards. You are just not going to notice the repeated slurs and insults. You aren’t going to “feel”, for example, the repeated insult that critics who were surprised and upset to learn certain aspects of LDS history were just lazy, and that’s why they never knew it before. You aren’t going to “feel”, for another example, the repeated statements that people who leave the church were lazy, probably never believed, or wanted to leave (the new variation being “belief is a choice” so obviously we CHOSE to stop believing for some evil or lazy reason). After hearing, one’s entire LDS life, the institutionalized bigotry in the LDS leadership and teachings about apostasy, to be so treated by apologists is added insult to injury. So people vent. But to suggest that this venting will somehow lead to outright violence against Mormons in general is unwarranted. But the fact that you believe, and make, such statements is exactly why you will never find out just how frustrating it is to be a complete critic and try to interact on a board like FAIR or MAD.
The Danites were largely a reply to violence, and threats of violence against Mormons. Porter Rockwell was Joseph's bodyguard. He was also a response to violence and threats of violence against Joseph and the Saints. Can this violence happen again? Of course it can. Like when Joseph was tarred and feathered and eventually murdered by a mob. It was apostates who thirsted after his blood, and he mentioned this many times.
While the Danites may have originated as a reply to violence, it later became a group that engaged in preemptive violence, and, according to many, engaged in acts of blood atonement. I’m not an expert on the Danites, but do know enough to view your statement as leaving out a lot of significant history. Moreover, the episode of MMM is another testament to the possibility of Mormon violence. Mormons are a mixed bag of humanity, just like exmormons.
You asked about whether or not I “want” change. I stated that:
I'm not trying to change Mormonism or anyone, Ray. I gave that up long ago, and I never wanted to change Mormonism, I wanted to help Mormons see that good, decent, and honest people can lose faith in the LDS church for legitimate reasons. I gave up on that "mission", because it became apparent that anyone who was capable of understanding that had understood it long ago. Those who don't recognize it never will, no matter who talks to them about it, other than the prophet himself.
and later said:
I do disagree with you, however, on whether or not the LDS church could change this. They've changed other teachings that were just as fundamental, in the past. It may be hard to visualize what changes would have to take place for this to happen, but I don't think it is impossible. Unlikely in our lifetimes, but I'd guess likely in the lifetimes of our children.
I am not emotionally invested in Mormonism enough to actively “want” this to happen in some way. I do not live in an LDS dominated community and my family are liberal LDS, and after some readjustments, my apostasy does not generally affect my relationship with them. I “want” change to happen in a generic fashion, like “wanting” people in the Mid-East to work on their very similar familial issues. But I am realistic about both situations. I think the world would be better off if we all could divest ourselves of some of this tribal division, but am not certain if it is possible. I can’t invest emotional energy longing for some change I don’t even know is possible. I have a real life to deal with, quite separate from these issues. Participating on this board is a diversionary activity for me, not my real life.
I respect their right to believe in the fundamentals, and don't feel any obsessive urge to prove them wrong.
Nor do I, which is why I refuse to participate there anymore. It’s not worth that much time or effort. But here is what I think you and I share, we just come at it from different histories which colors our perspective – I don’t like seeing people treated unfairly or outright erroneous statements being made about people. That is why I protest when I read statements such as yours, creating some sort of direct link between the venting on a board like this and real life violence which has been enacted against Mormons in real life. I don’t think that was a fair, or substantiated comment, and it encourages the very bigotry we talked about earlier. Your statements about the “evil spirit” reflects that same seed of engrained bigotry against those who have left the faith. You have stated, in the past, that you are forced to deal with a lot of crooks and liars in real life. Those are real problems, real aggravations. Are you really going to insist that people who vent about Juliann’s internet behavior have an “evil spirit” when, in real life, you have to deal with what could reasonably be called evil behavior? It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I used to participate on an atheist board. Of course believers couldn’t stay away from it, including LDS from time to time. Believers weren’t automatically kicked off, like on RFM, but since this was a board specifically for atheists, there were a lot of atheists who would “jump” on the believers who came to the board to challenge and or convert us. Some ugly statements were made, on both sides. Did that mean that any of us were going to engage in acts of violence in real life on the “other”? Of course not. People who engage in acts of violence are psychologically disturbed individuals who were likely going to engage in such acts regardless of the particular specifics of their background. They may use the specifics of their background to create the particular tableau on which they enact their passion play, but it would have happened regardless of the particular details of their lives. I view internet boards much as I do video games. Human beings have the natural urge to engage the “other”, to tribalize, and even to defend their own with violent acts. It’s a controlled and fairly harmless way to indulge in those natural instincts. In cultures where open executions are conducted in front of citizens, those executions were sometimes a form of entertainment. It’s the same instinct that makes people want to play violent video games. If I had to choose between people attending and enjoying real executions and video games, I’d choose the video games every time. If I had to choose between people getting angry with and wanting to debate the real Mormons in their lives, their friends and families, and arguing with apologists on the internet, I’ll choose the internet every time. Both allow release of the same instinct, but one causes less real life damage.