? for Ray A

[_beastie]

What about nevermos? Are they second rate bigots?

They're probably the equivalent of Nazi appeasers.

[_beastie]

Hmmm, you think that some unstable people might feel justified killing the Nazi wannabes, ie, the bigoted exmormons? Combine that with the linking of us to an "evil spirit", and you might have dynamite in the hands of some nut. Ray, my future death might be on your hands.

[_beastie]

I just checked MAD and don't see you working on this over there, Ray. I think you ought to start a thread about it. They ought to be warned.

[_beastie]

Hey, I have a great idea, Ray. Here's Mitt Romney's presidential campaign website:

http://www.mittromney.com/

You ought to join up and start communicating with him about this important phenomenon, the Mormon Holocaust in the early stages. It's the only moral thing to do. He might be in a position to do something about it, to stop this burgeoning exmormon Nazi movement.

[_Bond...James Bond]

Should I just link my "Mormon Persecution" thread to this thread and call it a day?

[_beastie]

Should I just link my "Mormon Persecution" thread to this thread and call it a day?

Ray's an interesting case because he isn't a Mormon. (not meaning to speak about him as if he isn't here, but just informing Bond) He believes in the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and I think (perhaps Ray can clarify) sort of believes in the church, but won't be forced to find his salvation. (that's a clumsy paraphrasing of what he's said in the past, but it's the best I can do by memory)

But it certainly is some sort of evidence of something. :)

[_Mister Scratch]

The German people LOVED Hitler. Have you studied the history of the rise Nazi Germany? It didn't start with violence, it started with calm assurances that everything was okay, but Jews were a "problem". It ended with SIX MLLION Jews dead.

Are you seriously suggesting that criticism of Juliann and DCP, even if totally unjustified and "hateful", is the equivalent of the teachings of the Nazis regarding the Jews?

In part. But what I am suggesting is that sentiments against Mormonism overall are unhealthy.

Huh? No one should ever criticize Mormonism at all? You can't be serious!

And the sentiments against Dan Peterson are ignominous, hateful, prejudiced, inflammatory, and could lead to unstable people going further.

Here are some of the comments:

Okay, cool. Let's go through them one by one, to see if they really are "ignonminous [sic], hateful, prejudiced, inflammatory, and could lead to unstable people going further." (by the way: I don't buy your "unstable people going further due to writings" argument. This is what they tried to say in cases where wackos read Catcher in the Rye and claimed it prompted them to murder.)

Anyhow, here goes:

"The man is a barracuda! . . . He is a mean spirited person of the highest order. I have no sympathy for this poor excuse for a human being at all! Blech!!!" (Lucyfer, on the RFM board, 26 December 2006, regarding Daniel Peterson)

Unfortunately, DCP *has* been guilty of "mean spirited" behavior, such as his gossipmongering about Mike Quinn. Also: no calls for violence here.

"DCP likes to spend his time degenerating others. . . . All DCP is doing is hiding behind the curtain . . . all the while turning gears and flipping switches to make sure that he isn't exposed for the bigoted fraud he is." (from the ironically titled Mormon Discussions Board, 4 February 2007)

A bit over the top, but no mention of violence here.

”I'm not excusing his pompous diatribes or attacks on ex-Mormons or his twisting of church history and bizarre Kantian relativist leanings, but still, I feel sorry for him.” (Kimberly Ann [on the "Recovery" board, 26 December 2006], regarding Daniel Peterson)

This is actually expressing some sympathy....

Why all the attention and focus on Prof. Daniel Peterson [on the 'Recovery' board]?"
Mr Daniel Peterson issued a challenge to a poster here. DP has ran off
That's why.
DP is a blowhard moral coward, in my opinion, as he called for a debate and when the call was answered, DP ran away like a craven cur.
You do not need to say sorry to DCP. He . . . is a bad, wicked man. One day the Devil will claim him for his own . . .
(Matt, "Recovery" board [7 March 2006])

This seems fairly accurate: DCP is fond of flinging challenges from the safety of the heavily moderated and fittingly named MADboard. He often "goes into hiding" when challenged.

I don't know if you've noticed, Agassiz, but you're approaching Dan Peterson in popularity ratings on here. And comments like this are why. . .
Look around you. Jesse Jackson's a joke. Jimmy Swaggart's a joke. The Pope's a joke. The Mormon prophet, who claims to be a Christian, is a joke. Albert Mohler, Jr.'s a joke. Even Mother Teresa was a joke, cozying up to all those inhuman dictators, and letting people die so she could "work out her penance", rather than using the millions she had donated to her to erect a modern health care facility. THEY'RE ALL A JOKE.
-- Tal Bachman (RfM, 10 August 2006)

This is only just barely about DCP! Also, I hardly see how calling him "a joke" is on a par with anti-Semitic hate speech.

"Prof. P is a coward and a few other things I could name, but I will not stoop to his level." (from the ironically-named Mormon Discussions Board, 3 February 2007)

???? Again, is this supposed to be hate speech?

Daniel Graham may have done some brilliant stuff - but that's entirely irrelevant to this issue, isn't it? He could be Martin Heidegger himself (in fact, judging by the fascination with anti-realism BS Mormon apologists seem to have, he probably loves the guy).
-Tal Bachman (RFM, 12 June 2006)

Who is Danile Graham?

The smell around Daniel Peterson and his ilk at FARMS are symptoms of an ideological system in distress as much as the smell of decaying flesh is of a dead body. They are Derridian postmodern fog machines whose purpose is to make the terrain around the borders of Mormonism so hard to find and to appear so baffling and unattractive that the faithful who wander in that direction will turn back in dismay.
Don’t hold your breath (though it is hard to resist doing this) while waiting for Peterson or FARMS to clarify anything. But even smelly fog shows can be enjoyed at a distance. Peterson and his FARMSy friends put out some spectacularly pungent fog.
(Bob McCue, on the “Recovery” board, 13 March 2006)

Once more: how is this "hate speech"?

in my opinion, no honest, rationally-thinking person can read FARMS' and FAIRS' apologetics and remain a TBM. To maintain belief, one has to be as dishonest and/or unhinged as the apologists themselves are. (Randy J., “Recovery” Board, 22 November 2006)

This is a criticism of FARMS/FAIR... It does not even mention DCP.

“the scamsters game that . . . began with Joseph and continues to Daniel Peterson” (Luman Walters, RFM, 31 August 2006)

Once again: Where's the hate?

For Mormonism, there is safety only in stupour. Not in hard, brave thought.
-- Tal Bachman, RFM (13 June 2006)

C'mon, Ray---is this the best you've got?

Peterson is an idiot and a hack. . . . The man is not really a man he's a snake. -brian-the-christ (RfM, 10 January 2006)

Okay, this one is pretty mean. Not quite up to Nazi-level though, imho.

"I truly believe that DCP is intellectually corrupt. He was a *MAJOR* catalyst for my wife and I to study our way out of the church. He relies on bloviating with large words in an attempt to obfuscate the subject matter at hand and when called on it he takes his ball and runs home."
(BornUnderPeaches, 28 June 2006, "Recovery" Board)

Not hateful at all, and I hope very much that DCP has repented for causing this person's apostasy.

I don't have much to say about DP & Co.
The fact that they're intellectual charlatans pales beside their lack of fundamental human decency. --”et in Utah ego”(RFM board, 25 September 2005)

Where's the hate?

Daniel Peterson, "a lowballing trashtalker who deals in smear tactics" ("Mister Scratch," on the Dr. Shades board)

This quotation was yanked out of context. As a reply, for a brief time I had a quote of DCP's in my sig line where he says, "I am, in fact, a racist."

Mormonism is really a break off Islam They don't think Jesus is the god , they cover up their women and give them no rights, They hate all other religons and you must convert to their religion or go to hell. They get violent tempers when you question their beliefs. They want to take over the earth. The two groups have too much in common. -fromplanet13, "Recovery" board, 31 October 2006

This is making a comparison between Islam and Mormonism.... Not quite the same as your comparison of RfM to the Nazis. It seems "fromplanet13" could use some lessons from you, Ray!

I remain a huge fan of Daniel Peterson's. I can't think of anyone else over there, with perhaps the exception of Midgley, who so consistently makes the church, and Mormon belief, look idiotic.
(Tal Bachman, on the "Recovery" board, 13 March 2006)

You know, DCP has poured gas on this fire. Have you never seen him refer to Tal as "Tall Tales"?

DCP is alive and ticking. Slippery Joe and Briggy are long gone, and so it's not quite the same to pick on them. There's something that is more satisfying---in a nebulous but reaffirming sort of way---about calling Peterson a lard ass and a douche bag, as opposed to talking trash about Polygamy Joe.
-- “Mister Scratch,” The “Recovery” Board (7 March 2006)

I suppose this could be pointed to as calling for "picking on" DCP, but for all we know, DCP penned this nugget himself! (Or else one of his pals, such as Hamblin, did.)

"Daniel Peterson is not a second rate hack academic. He doesn't rate. In the slightest. Without BYU I wonder what he would be doing? Flipping burgers? No, he would be training people to flip burgers at a burger flipping academy, somewhere..." (Matt, "Recovery from Mormonism" board, 12 January 2007)

I actually laughed at this one.

This man has the biggest persecution complex I have ever seen. He can't write anything without mentioning his detractors. He is pathetically insecure. His writings are all self-serving and do nothing to illuminate the so-called "subject". His ONLY purpose for EVER writing ANYTHING is to assuage his own fragile ego.
Peterson without an enemy is like natural gas without the stinky additive to warn people of its presence. He's invisible, colorless, tasteless and heavier (waaaaaay heavier) than air. The only way anyone even knows he's around is because of the "stink" that he makes sure surrounds him at all times because he knows he's nothing without it!
Put THAT in your tagline mr. Peterson
("Undetectable Odor," on the so-called "Recovery" board, 30 January 2007)

Funny how DCP happily obliged this guy, and did indeed put the quote in the tagline.

That both DP and Nibley are nothing more than merely average scholars needs to be pointed out more often. That neither of them can fairly be called "intellectual" should be obvious, but isn't (which is more an indictment of american education than it is testament to any great powers of imposture in either of them).
I'm not sure that DP even makes much of a claim to intellectual status. While he sometimes vaguely alludes to his "other" scholarly life, what he produces for the LDS apologetics market is usually just a loose pastiche of quotations which provide the jumping off point for petty ad hominem attacks. The true objects of his "criticism" are individual persons, not ideas or arguments.
Nibley, on the other hand, at least possesses the trappings of an "intellectual," if only on the level of caricature. He reads like an anti-intellectual stereotype of a "professor:" convoluted verbiage, "big words," and allusions to classical literature dropped in every other sentence.
-- “et in Utah ego” (“Recovery” board, 29 October 2005)

Unless I'm mistaken, et in Utah ego is herself a university professor.... Perhaps we should regard her words with the same weight that is given to professors on the fittingly named MADboard....

“Maybe I have issues of my own that make me take pity on the most despicable of people, but I really do feel for Mr. Peterson.” -- Kimberly Ann, "Recovery" board, 26 December 2006

This is sympathy, not hate....

Peterson still seems bewildered and hurt when people observe that he focuses so often on everything but what is really at issue, in his poor, mad scribblings. . . . If we had any doubt the church was a fraud, that it actually has guys like DCP "defending" it should confirm it beyond any doubt. (Tal Bachman, RFM, 8 June 2006)

There is a quite a large distance between saying that "the church was a fraud" vs. calling for genocide.

IMHO [Peterson] has sociopathic/borderline psychopathic tendencies. Guys like him give me the willies because they don't have any ethical/moral compass to guide what they do in life. He has no boundaries on who is fair game in his nasty attacks against everyone who might disagree with him. Objective reasoning does NOT exist in his world.
--”Rebel Scholar” (RFM Board, 26 September 2005)

This guy actually sounds a little bit like you, Ray.

I would like them to speak and publish as much as possible, because their stuff strikes everyone but totally gone Mormons as bloody daft. I don't know of any way to better illustrate to people that there is something profoundly screwed-up with Joseph's church than to show them Mormon apologetic writing. That's one big fat difference between me and them: They'd shut all of us up forever if they could, whereas I'd put Dan Peterson and Gee and the other dudes over there on TV as much as possible, especially with sharp interviewers. To most people, they sound like madmen. (Tal Bachman, RFM, 31 March 2006)

Come on. We know that DCP and Bachman have a history.

"But once you publish in FARMS your tainted for life. Let's face it. . . . And only the weak-minded find the FARMS rag to have any value."
Tom Kimball, of Signature Books, on RfM (11 May 2005)

He does have somewhat of a point.

“One great thing about Bro. Peterson is that even when he may have a point, he seems congenitally unable to express it in anything like a sane, convincing way.” (Tal Bachman, RFM, 22 December 2006)

And YOU exmos sit back and say NOTHING!!! And whine and complain about whenever you are attacked in the slightest. You are bigots! First rate bigots![/quote]

How does not saying anything make somebody a bigot? Please enlighten me, Ray.

[_Seven]

The German people LOVED Hitler. Have you studied the history of the rise Nazi Germany? It didn't start with violence, it started with calm assurances that everything was okay, but Jews were a "problem". It ended with SIX MLLION Jews dead.

Are you seriously suggesting that criticism of Juliann and DCP, even if totally unjustified and "hateful", is the equivalent of the teachings of the Nazis regarding the Jews?

In part. But what I am suggesting is that sentiments against Mormonism overall are unhealthy. And the sentiments against Dan Peterson are ignominous, hateful, prejudiced, inflammatory, and could lead to unstable people going further.

Here are some of the comments:

"The man is a barracuda! . . . He is a mean spirited person of the highest order. I have no sympathy for this poor excuse for a human being at all! Blech!!!" (Lucyfer, on the RFM board, 26 December 2006, regarding Daniel Peterson)

"DCP likes to spend his time degenerating others. . . . All DCP is doing is hiding behind the curtain . . . all the while turning gears and flipping switches to make sure that he isn't exposed for the bigoted fraud he is." (from the ironically titled Mormon Discussions Board, 4 February 2007)

”I'm not excusing his pompous diatribes or attacks on ex-Mormons or his twisting of church history and bizarre Kantian relativist leanings, but still, I feel sorry for him.” (Kimberly Ann [on the "Recovery" board, 26 December 2006], regarding Daniel Peterson)

Why all the attention and focus on Prof. Daniel Peterson [on the 'Recovery' board]?"
Mr Daniel Peterson issued a challenge to a poster here. DP has ran off
That's why.
DP is a blowhard moral coward, in my opinion, as he called for a debate and when the call was answered, DP ran away like a craven cur.
You do not need to say sorry to DCP. He . . . is a bad, wicked man. One day the Devil will claim him for his own . . .
(Matt, "Recovery" board [7 March 2006])

I don't know if you've noticed, Agassiz, but you're approaching Dan Peterson in popularity ratings on here. And comments like this are why. . .
Look around you. Jesse Jackson's a joke. Jimmy Swaggart's a joke. The Pope's a joke. The Mormon prophet, who claims to be a Christian, is a joke. Albert Mohler, Jr.'s a joke. Even Mother Teresa was a joke, cozying up to all those inhuman dictators, and letting people die so she could "work out her penance", rather than using the millions she had donated to her to erect a modern health care facility. THEY'RE ALL A JOKE.
-- Tal Bachman (RfM, 10 August 2006)

"Prof. P is a coward and a few other things I could name, but I will not stoop to his level." (from the ironically-named Mormon Discussions Board, 3 February 2007)

Daniel Graham may have done some brilliant stuff - but that's entirely irrelevant to this issue, isn't it? He could be Martin Heidegger himself (in fact, judging by the fascination with anti-realism BS Mormon apologists seem to have, he probably loves the guy).
-Tal Bachman (RFM, 12 June 2006)

The smell around Daniel Peterson and his ilk at FARMS are symptoms of an ideological system in distress as much as the smell of decaying flesh is of a dead body. They are Derridian postmodern fog machines whose purpose is to make the terrain around the borders of Mormonism so hard to find and to appear so baffling and unattractive that the faithful who wander in that direction will turn back in dismay.
Don’t hold your breath (though it is hard to resist doing this) while waiting for Peterson or FARMS to clarify anything. But even smelly fog shows can be enjoyed at a distance. Peterson and his FARMSy friends put out some spectacularly pungent fog.
(Bob McCue, on the “Recovery” board, 13 March 2006)

in my opinion, no honest, rationally-thinking person can read FARMS' and FAIRS' apologetics and remain a TBM. To maintain belief, one has to be as dishonest and/or unhinged as the apologists themselves are. (Randy J., “Recovery” Board, 22 November 2006)

“the scamsters game that . . . began with Joseph and continues to Daniel Peterson” (Luman Walters, RFM, 31 August 2006)

For Mormonism, there is safety only in stupour. Not in hard, brave thought.
-- Tal Bachman, RFM (13 June 2006)

Peterson is an idiot and a hack. . . . The man is not really a man he's a snake. -brian-the-christ (RfM, 10 January 2006)

"I truly believe that DCP is intellectually corrupt. He was a *MAJOR* catalyst for my wife and I to study our way out of the church. He relies on bloviating with large words in an attempt to obfuscate the subject matter at hand and when called on it he takes his ball and runs home."
(BornUnderPeaches, 28 June 2006, "Recovery" Board)

I don't have much to say about DP & Co.
The fact that they're intellectual charlatans pales beside their lack of fundamental human decency. --”et in Utah ego”(RFM board, 25 September 2005)

Daniel Peterson, "a lowballing trashtalker who deals in smear tactics" ("Mister Scratch," on the Dr. Shades board)

Mormonism is really a break off Islam They don't think Jesus is the god , they cover up their women and give them no rights, They hate all other religons and you must convert to their religion or go to hell. They get violent tempers when you question their beliefs. They want to take over the earth. The two groups have too much in common. -fromplanet13, "Recovery" board, 31 October 2006

I remain a huge fan of Daniel Peterson's. I can't think of anyone else over there, with perhaps the exception of Midgley, who so consistently makes the church, and Mormon belief, look idiotic.
(Tal Bachman, on the "Recovery" board, 13 March 2006)

DCP is alive and ticking. Slippery Joe and Briggy are long gone, and so it's not quite the same to pick on them. There's something that is more satisfying---in a nebulous but reaffirming sort of way---about calling Peterson a lard ass and a douche bag, as opposed to talking trash about Polygamy Joe.
-- “Mister Scratch,” The “Recovery” Board (7 March 2006)

"Daniel Peterson is not a second rate hack academic. He doesn't rate. In the slightest. Without BYU I wonder what he would be doing? Flipping burgers? No, he would be training people to flip burgers at a burger flipping academy, somewhere..." (Matt, "Recovery from Mormonism" board, 12 January 2007)

This man has the biggest persecution complex I have ever seen. He can't write anything without mentioning his detractors. He is pathetically insecure. His writings are all self-serving and do nothing to illuminate the so-called "subject". His ONLY purpose for EVER writing ANYTHING is to assuage his own fragile ego.
Peterson without an enemy is like natural gas without the stinky additive to warn people of its presence. He's invisible, colorless, tasteless and heavier (waaaaaay heavier) than air. The only way anyone even knows he's around is because of the "stink" that he makes sure surrounds him at all times because he knows he's nothing without it!
Put THAT in your tagline mr. Peterson
("Undetectable Odor," on the so-called "Recovery" board, 30 January 2007)

That both DP and Nibley are nothing more than merely average scholars needs to be pointed out more often. That neither of them can fairly be called "intellectual" should be obvious, but isn't (which is more an indictment of american education than it is testament to any great powers of imposture in either of them).
I'm not sure that DP even makes much of a claim to intellectual status. While he sometimes vaguely alludes to his "other" scholarly life, what he produces for the LDS apologetics market is usually just a loose pastiche of quotations which provide the jumping off point for petty ad hominem attacks. The true objects of his "criticism" are individual persons, not ideas or arguments.
Nibley, on the other hand, at least possesses the trappings of an "intellectual," if only on the level of caricature. He reads like an anti-intellectual stereotype of a "professor:" convoluted verbiage, "big words," and allusions to classical literature dropped in every other sentence.
-- “et in Utah ego” (“Recovery” board, 29 October 2005)

“Maybe I have issues of my own that make me take pity on the most despicable of people, but I really do feel for Mr. Peterson.” -- Kimberly Ann, "Recovery" board, 26 December 2006

Peterson still seems bewildered and hurt when people observe that he focuses so often on everything but what is really at issue, in his poor, mad scribblings. . . . If we had any doubt the church was a fraud, that it actually has guys like DCP "defending" it should confirm it beyond any doubt. (Tal Bachman, RFM, 8 June 2006)

IMHO [Peterson] has sociopathic/borderline psychopathic tendencies. Guys like him give me the willies because they don't have any ethical/moral compass to guide what they do in life. He has no boundaries on who is fair game in his nasty attacks against everyone who might disagree with him. Objective reasoning does NOT exist in his world.
--”Rebel Scholar” (RFM Board, 26 September 2005)

I would like them to speak and publish as much as possible, because their stuff strikes everyone but totally gone Mormons as bloody daft. I don't know of any way to better illustrate to people that there is something profoundly screwed-up with Joseph's church than to show them Mormon apologetic writing. That's one big fat difference between me and them: They'd shut all of us up forever if they could, whereas I'd put Dan Peterson and Gee and the other dudes over there on TV as much as possible, especially with sharp interviewers. To most people, they sound like madmen. (Tal Bachman, RFM, 31 March 2006)

"But once you publish in FARMS your tainted for life. Let's face it. . . . And only the weak-minded find the FARMS rag to have any value."
Tom Kimball, of Signature Books, on RfM (11 May 2005)

“One great thing about Bro. Peterson is that even when he may have a point, he seems congenitally unable to express it in anything like a sane, convincing way.” (Tal Bachman, RFM, 22 December 2006)

And YOU exmos sit back and say NOTHING!!! And whine and complain about whenever you are attacked in the slightest. You are bigots! First rate bigots!

If this is hate speech that could result in violence for which there will be blood on our hands, then RayA's comments toward me and the participants on RFM and MDB make me nervous. Are we all in danger?

[_beastie]

If this is hate speech that could result in violence for which there will be blood on our hands, then RayA's comments toward me and the participants on RFM and MDB make me nervous. Are we all in danger?

I doubt it.

But if I were to use Ray's logic, I would actually conclude we are at an even higher risk. Mormon bigots link us to Satan, Ray has linked us to Nazis as well. I think that is an ideal recipe for a wingnut to justify violence. In fact, many mentally unstable people who kill others claim the person they were killing was evil somehow, influenced by Satan.

I'm not going to use Ray's logic because it is unsubstantiated hyperbole. Therefore, let me reassure you that none of us are in danger, other than the risk of wasting time on internet boards in general.

[_Seven]

Should I just link my "Mormon Persecution" thread to this thread and call it a day?

Ray's an interesting case because he isn't a Mormon. (not meaning to speak about him as if he isn't here, but just informing Bond) He believes in the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and I think (perhaps Ray can clarify) sort of believes in the church, but won't be forced to find his salvation. (that's a clumsy paraphrasing of what he's said in the past, but it's the best I can do by memory)

But it certainly is some sort of evidence of something. :)

Here is Ray A on why he isn't active:

Ray A
Area Authority

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 621
Location: Australia

Re: Mormonism Manufactures Consequences for Sin
KimberlyAnn wrote:
[You aren't a Mormon, are you Ray? Why did you leave the church? Possibly because it's not true? Do you believe Mormonism is healthy for women (or men for that matter)?

KA


I did not leave the church because I felt it was not true. I addressed this on FAIR many times. It was a combination of cog.diss and personal weakness, and just boredom with the routine, and some negative reactions by members to my quest for more knowledge on controversial matters in church history. I was also never able to come to terms with polygamy (I'm a lot like the Witnesses). When I left I was still a believer in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, and that Joseph Smith was a prophet. I still believe both, but in a much more "liberal" way. I'm not a literalist. My belief in the divine authenticity and spiritual message of the Book of Mormon remains quite strong. For this reason, perhaps, I don't "buck the system", though I am critical of some things. I do admit that leaving granted me much more freedom, and I felt happier being away from ritualistic living. Even Nibley admitted that "endless church meetings" and not enough mental/intellectual food can drive one nuts. I liked the intellectual freedom. I am not saying that the church, or church life, is faultless (and I do agree with some of the points being made), but I think there's another imbalance, and that's the other extreme with some exmos who demonise the church as some kind of unhealthy ogre. That's primarily why I respond to these imbalances, and skewed, broad-brush thinking. "If it's bad for me, it must be bad for everyone else." "A black fella beat me up, so all blacks are bad." I know World War II veterans who still have.....