? for Ray A

[_Ray A]

When it comes down to Mormons, theres more atheists in the USA than there are Mormons, yet there are more Mormons in jail than there are atheists.

Provide your evidence for this.

[_Ray A]

The grandiosity of comparing personal criticism and attacks against one person, even if those criticisms and attacks are completely unjustified, to the Jewish holocaust is breathtaking.

I did not bring this up in regard to one person. I've been mentioning it for a long time, even back on FAIR.

Really, DCP did start it, Ray is just running with it. I don't remember ever making a statement that personally attacked DCP other than to state I think he's a mediocre apologist who doesn't merit all this attention. But now I will personally attack him and say that he is suffering from the same delusions of grandeur as Tom DeLay, and both DCP and Tom DeLay are surrounded by enough acolytes to feel justified in making such an inane comparison. I wonder who Tom DeLay thinks is headed to the gas chamber? Republicans?

How did DCP "start it"? Please name the time and place. Your personal attack is not surprising, actually, because you've remained silent about all the verbal abuses and distortions that occur here. NOW you decide to attack.

by the way, Ray, you know the one group of people MOST Americans say they would never elect as president? No, not Mormons. Atheists. Atheists, Ray. Yes, that is indicative of prejudice and ignorance to a certain degree. It's also indicative of the fact that these people believe it's important to believe in God to be president. I happen to disagree, but that belief alone is not indicative of evil thinking. But I don't point to the criticism of, say, Richard Dawkins and claim that this is a sign of an oncoming atheist holocaust of some sort, or that the people who criticize Richard will have blood on their hands when atheists become the victims of violence. I wouldn't make that comparison because I have a sense of balance and history, Ray, which is what you and DCP seem to have lost.

American coinage has this insignia: "In God We trust." This was the foundation of America, in spite of the fact that Dawkins tried to turn Jefferson into an atheist. As Jefferson himself said, WHY would an atheist even bother to create The Jefferson Bible? Huh? Are we going to see The Dawkins Bible? Do you even see how this gets twisted, to serve "atheists purposes"? So what do you want, an atheist America? Then push an atheist for president and see how far you get. America did not become great on atheism! It did not become the most powerful nation on earth by adhering to Marxism or atheism. You want an atheist America? Go for it. I am only stating what the facts are about electing a Mormon president, and you want to push the barrow of atheism. Fine. I honestly don't know where atheists have been persecuted, but atheist regimes have killed millions, and the atheist apologia has been "they were not really atheists". So admit it, beastie, you're a much an apologist for unscionable atheism as you claim DCP is for Mormonism, that "theocratic religion". You push this propaganda as much as you claim Mormons do. You "know" there is no life after death, you "know" there is no spirit, you "know" the supernatural does not exist. Why don't you just bear your testimony?

When I did participate on RFM I did object to certain stereotypes, such as saying TBMs are "stupid" or "brainwashed". I objected when John Clark was being made fun of. I have objected to plenty of statements I believe are indicative of nothing more than mean-spiritedness on RFM. But I certainly don't view it as my job to form some sort of exmormon coast guard and cruise RFM regularly in order to object to personal attacks on DCP (by the way, I do know from occasional lurking that usually someone does object), and I think that to imagine that RFMers making fun of DCP will be to blame for some mass violence against Mormons is a sign of distorted thinking.

You're a mixture of good thinking, and bad thinking. In order for evil to prevail it is only necessary for good men and women to remain silent. RFM is evil. If these disturbed Mormons really wanted help they would visit a therapist, NOT go on this anti-Mormon hate site.

[_Ray A]

I had not specificaly known about GPL. Was never told about him. But it does show lack of inspiration that someone would be appointed with such deep issues. doesn't exactly help your argument. Admitedly doesn't help mine either. but are there any others?

See, this is what I mean. Mormons can't win. Now you try to turn the tables by accusing them of a "lack of inspiration". Do you see how pathetically biased you are, like the rest of the bigots here on MDB? No matter what Mormons do, you will find fault with them! Do you know what this is called? BIGOTRY!

[_Mephitus]

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_dilb ... n_jai.html - commenting blog
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r188.pdf - worldwide jail count
http://holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm - percentages of religion in prison (sorry, it was .2%, not .02%, my bad)

Atheists have been credited with roughly 7-10% (conservative estimates) in the USA, and if you took every single person in the world that the church consideres members into the USA, they would only make up 4% of the total population. (going off 12 million members and 300million US residents)

[_Mephitus]

I had not specificaly known about GPL. Was never told about him. But it does show lack of inspiration that someone would be appointed with such deep issues. doesn't exactly help your argument. Admitedly doesn't help mine either. but are there any others?

See, this is what I mean. Mormons can't win. Now you try to turn the tables by accusing them of a "lack of inspiration". Do you see how pathetically biased you are, like the rest of the bigots here on MDB? No matter what Mormons do, you will find fault with them! Do you know what this is called? BIGOTRY!

When someone claims to have the one and singular god run religion in the world, i expect it to run in an ineffible fashion. God is supposed to work off rules and laws to exacting specifications. When you claim to be the perfected church of god, then i expect to be able to see perfection in the choice of heads of "the perfect one church of god". when you have such glaring issues....wouldn't god show that to the heads so as to keep problems arrising in his only perfect church on the planet earth?

If i ever claim perfection(either personal or religious), then by all means make fun of me for my faults.

[_beastie]

How did DCP "start it"? Please name the time and place. Your personal attack is not surprising, actually, because you've remained silent about all the verbal abuses and distortions that occur here. NOW you decide to attack.

DCP started the Nazi comparison. Dart started a thread about it right on this board. You continued the Nazi comparison. That MAD thread is where I got your original statement for the OP.

American coinage has this insignia: "In God We trust." This was the foundation of America, in spite of the fact that Dawkins tried to turn Jefferson into an atheist. As Jefferson himself said, WHY would an atheist even bother to create The Jefferson Bible? Huh? Are we going to see The Dawkins Bible? Do you even see how this gets twisted, to serve "atheists purposes"? So what do you want, an atheist America? Then push an atheist for president and see how far you get. America did not become great on atheism! It did not become the most powerful nation on earth by adhering to Marxism or atheism. You want an atheist America? Go for it. I am only stating what the facts are about electing a Mormon president, and you want to push the barrow of atheism. Fine. I honestly don't know where atheists have been persecuted, but atheist regimes have killed millions, and the atheist apologia has been "they were not really atheists". So admit it, beastie, you're a much an apologist for unscionable atheism as you claim DCP is for Mormonism, that "theocratic religion". You push this propaganda as much as you claim Mormons do. You "know" there is no life after death, you "know" there is no spirit, you "know" the supernatural does not exist. Why don't you just bear your testimony?

You aren’t making sense and you aren’t following the conversation. I’m not talking about wanting an atheist president, I’m not talking about atheism. I have never said I “know” there is no life after death, etc etc. Please try to get a grip and follow the conversation. (by the way, do the people who want to elect a Mormon president intend to turn the US into a Mormon nation?)

You were trying to say that the reason most Americans wouldn’t vote for a Mormon was due to exmormons, and trying to link that to attacking DCP. THAT is why I brought up atheism, Ray. More people would not vote for an atheist than for a Mormon. Whose fault is that?

If you are going to bounce around like a ball all over the place I’ll just let you rant on your own. Try to follow the conversation.

Most US citizens have never touched a piece of “anti Mormon” literature, much less read anything written on any exmormon website. Most Mormons have not even heard of DCP, much less nonmormons. Yet you are trying to link these personal attacks on DCP to the fact that many Americans would not vote for a Mormon (ignoring the fact that Mitt Romney is considered a viable candidate as we speak, of course)

Here is what most nonMormons who live outside the Mormon corridor know about Mormonism ,and they learned it from their school history books, not from anti Mormon literature or exmormon websites:

Mormons = Polygamy

Now go ahead and pretend somehow this is still the fault of exmormons and still somehow connected to the mean things they say about DCP.

You're a mixture of good thinking, and bad thinking. In order for evil to prevail it is only necessary for good men and women to remain silent. RFM is evil. If these disturbed Mormons really wanted help they would visit a therapist, NOT go on this anti-Mormon hate site.

Right now you're completely distorted thinking. You’re normally not, but right now you are. Just look at your disjointed response here for proof. You want to pretend my comments had to do with agitating to turn the US into an atheist state. You’re not even following your own train of thought. Your assertions in the OP were wild, meaningless hyperbole that used one of the greatest tragedies in modern history in a trivial fashion. You're now backed into a corner and can't admit it, so you are flailing about wildly, making wild and almost random comments that don't even have to do with the point of this thread.

[_Ray A]

You aren’t making sense and you aren’t following the conversation. I’m not talking about wanting an atheist president, I’m not talking about atheism. I have never said I “know” there is no life after death, etc etc. Please try to get a grip and follow the conversation.

Then why did you bring up the point about an atheist not being able to become president? What, pray tell, does that have to do with the subject? Perhaps you need to get a grip and stop bringing atheism into the conversation when we are discussing Mormons, NOT atheists.

You were trying to say that the reason most Americans wouldn’t vote for a Mormon was due to exmormons, and trying to link that to attacking DCP. THAT is why I brought up atheism, Ray. If you are going to bounce around like a ball all over the place I’ll just let you rant on your own. Follow the conversation.

When will you understand what I'm saying? The attacks on DCP is ONE facet of what I've been saying for a long time. I did not even mention DCP when I did my previous threads on this. His case, though, is a particularly good example of what I've been saying.

Most US citizens have never touched a piece of “anti Mormon” literature, much less read anything written on any exmormon website. Most Mormons have not even heard of DCP, much less nonmormons. Yet you are trying to link these personal attacks on DCP to the fact that many Americans would not vote for a Mormon (ignoring the fact that Mitt Romney is considered a viable candidate as we speak, of course)

No, I am saying that overall Americans have misinformed views about Mormons. Stereotyped views, which are enhanced by exmo and anti garbage. They, the exmos and antis, keep bringing up the past, and trying to say that present Mormons have these same attitudes, which is not the case. They perpetuate the cycle of distrust. They feed the media. I am not saying they cause it. I am saying they FEED it. And many do not listen to Mormon explanations.

Here is what most nonMormons who live outside the Mormon corridor know about Mormonism ,and they learned it from their school history books, not from anti Mormon literature or exmormon websites:

Mormons = Polygamy

Now go ahead and pretend somehow this is still the fault of exmormons and still somehow connected to the mean things they say about DCP.

I will repeat. Look at this board, and look at RFM. Look at how posters here gnaw, and gnaw, and carp and whine about polygamy, Mountain Meadows, clap and cheer Martha Beck, worship Steve Benson, create anti-Mormon websites, and come on beastie, please don't tell me that ex-Mormons will not have significant influence on the non-Mormon American population. They will say, "they were once Mormons, THEY should know".

Unfortunately, most will ignore the rest of the balanced and non-agressive ex-Mormon community. You cannot tell me that these ex-Mormons don't draw attention through their sensational and often biased claims.

Right now you are completely distorted thinking. You’re normally not, but right now you are. Just look at your disjointed response here for proof. You want to pretend my comments had to do with agitating to turn the US into an atheist state. You’re not even following your own train of thought.

Again, what does atheism have to do with this? And why did you initially bring up Dawkins? Here was your comment:

But I don't point to the criticism of, say, Richard Dawkins and claim that this is a sign of an oncoming atheist holocaust of some sort, or that the people who criticize Richard will have blood on their hands when atheists become the victims of violence. I wouldn't make that comparison because I have a sense of balance and history, Ray, which is what you and DCP seem to have lost.

What does an "atheist holocaust" have to do with this? I have never heard of an "atheist holocaust", and it's irrelevant to the discussion.

[_harmony]

I think you give this board too much credit. And I think you give RfM 'waaaaay too much credit. And I think you give Daniel 'way too little credit. Daniel does what he does very well. Without the critics, without an enemy to attack, Daniel's life work becomes moot. Please do not take away Daniel's reason to exist.

The LDS church will endure long after both these boards and Daniel and all the rest of us are history. The church will change to meet the needs of the people at the time. That's the beauty of it.

[_Mister Scratch]

Unfortunately, DCP *has* been guilty of "mean spirited" behavior, such as his gossipmongering about Mike Quinn. Also: no calls for violence here.

No, unfortunately you have twisted this whole affair and made Dan an offender for a word. I take him at his word, and he has denied your accusations.

Odd how you are willing to give Prof. P. the benefit of the doubt, and yet you will not extend the same courtesy to me. Anyways, you can read his posts for yourself. The evidence is overwhelming---coming from his own words, no less!---that he was guilty of gossipmongering. He hates the fact that he slipped up on this issue, and confessed to me in an email that he knows it "makes [him] look unethical." His behavior on this subject is the classic example of the sinner having his sins exposed to the light of day. I hope he repents.

No matter what he says you will believe to the contrary, because it makes your blog "more juicy". As they say, never let the facts get in the way of a good gossip story.

So, do you have some new facts? Because the facts as they stand communicate quite clearly that DCP was engaged in gossipmongering.

[_Mister Scratch]

Huh? No one should ever criticize Mormonism at all? You can't be serious!

It's pointless trying to prove anything to you, Scratch. You have one mission in life: To accuse and denigrate Mormons in any way you can.

That's just not true, Ray. The bulk of my criticism is aimed at behavior which, to my mind, can be changed. I have high hopes that the Church will one day change for the better, and become everything it is capable of being.

We still don't know what your personal beliefs are. But inch by inch, post by post, you seek to undermine Mormonism. Anything that makes Mormons look bad is "juicy" to you.

The fact of the matter is that I have a lot of questions regarding Mormonism. (I note that you, too, are guilty of conflating the system with the individuals.) One of my main questions is why the Church is so insistent upon maintaining this "squeaky clean" image, when in fact there are quite a few ugly skeletons in the closet. Something about this has always seemed very dishonest to me, and so yes, I do suppose that the stuff that "look[s] bad" is indeed "juicy" (since it runs so contrary to the image the Church strives to maintain).

Throw it into the mill of MDB for the pirahna to chew on. What I would like to know is whether you are a member of the church, but you're silent on this, and anything to do with your personal life, while chewing up others by scrutinising their lives inside out to bring ridicule on them.

This is not true either, Ray. I only use the stuff which the people themselves post publicly. I don't do any "scrutinizing" of anyone's "lives." I read posts, and I respond to posts, and there is nothing wrong with that.

If you are a member of the church, then you are in the category of the worst apostates.

Wow, this is surely one for the record books. Thanks, Ray, I needed that.

I have never seen an informed or balanced criticism of the church come from you. It's always one-sided.

Seems a bit hyperbolic. Would you say that many of the apologists' arguments are also "one-sided"?