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_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Only the apostates who fight the Church.


This is a MAD teaching, not the teaching of the LDS church. The LDS church carefully defined apostasy, and I shared that in a very recent thread:

Apostasy
36863, True to the Faith, Apostasy, 13
When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.


This is a direct citation from a church manual.

The apologists on MAD try to present a different story, because they know that church leaders have consistently taught extremely offensive things about apostates. If apostates just means people who leave the church, that creates a dilemma for them in that it presents LDS bigotry quite starkly.


Apostates were hounded, and some killed, in the 19th century. Yes, the leaders who encouraged this will have blood on their hands. They will have to answer for that. I am an apostate by the dictionary definition, yet I fear some exmos and their extremism far more than any TBM. I have posted on RFM, and Exmo-Social, and the vile sentiments expressed against me there left me far less trusting of exmos. I would even call some of the more extreme ones sociopaths, like the one who called my daughter a "crack whore", and that was not the worst of it. But get this? WHY were such vile sentiments expressed against me? Because I stated I still believed in the Book of Mormon, and not even a liberal interpretation could stop this bile. What I experienced there convinced me I was dealing with some very unstable people.


That was a quick backflip. First you insist apostate means only those who attack the church, now you include yourself by "dictionary defintion".

Of course you fear exmormons more than you do Mormons, Ray. You're on the Mormon side. Why is it so difficult for you to admit this fact? You've conceded as much right here on this thread. They're not going to attack you. As I said before, you're their dream version of an exmormon.

OTOH, I have experienced malicious personal attacks at the hands of internet LDS apologists. I have been called a mentally unstable liar. Some have hinted that I have not been truthful about my divorce, and my exhusband is probably a victim of my malicious nature. Others have been more mundane, and simply called me a liar and plagiarist. I can think of at least two LDS apologists I've encountered that I genuinely believe to be mentally unstable. I would never feel comfortable with them knowing my real name. I believe they have a very dark side and would fear them in real life.

Of course you haven't experienced this. You're on their side, Ray. Is this so hard to grasp?

I'm certainly glad that you agree that Brigham Young and other notable church leaders have blood on their hands. Their rhetoric was violent and it wouldn't even take a mentally unstable believer to think it was condoning outright murder. Now go read some old threads on MMM and see how the apologists excuse their rhetoric, and insist that everyone knew it was meaningless rhetoric - it was the style of the times. Would you contest the apologists who made such statements?

The comments made on RFM pale in comparison. Do you also agree with that? For one thing, no comment on RFM condones violence. If a violent threat were ever made, the mods would remove it the second they became aware of it.

You have made a wild leap to state that the criticisms of DCP constitute incitement to violence. It is no leap to state that the extreme, violent rhetoric of BY and other church leaders incited violence, and eventually led to the worse case of domestic terrorism until the Oklahoma City Bombing. Yet you still feel comfortable viewing these men as speaking for God somehow.

I don't get it. I really don't.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Of course you haven't experienced this. You're on their side, Ray. Is this so hard to grasp?


Not at all hard to grasp. And the reason I'm on "their side" is solely because of the Book of Mormon. I've had my share of criticisms from TBMs, and just like you are not deterred by the slander you got on RFM, I am not deterred by TBM criticism because of my belief in the Book of Mormon. In the end, we just have some fundamental differences, and we choose to stay with the "side" we believe in, regardless of abuse.

You have made a wild leap to state that the criticisms of DCP constitute incitement to violence. It is no leap to state that the extreme, violent rhetoric of BY and other church leaders incited violence, and eventually led to the worse case of domestic terrorism until the Oklahoma City Bombing. Yet you still feel comfortable viewing these men as speaking for God somehow.

I don't get it. I really don't.


Because those men were not perfect, sometimes malicious, and I believe sometimes out of harmony with God. Does this invalidate the Book of Mormon? Does this prove the Church untrue? They did not always live up to the revelations given to them. No where in LDS scripture were some of these actions justified. So this is a false deduction:

a) The prophets were sometimes wrong, and even committed acts that would be condemned by God.

b) Therefore the Church is untrue.

No man is a repository of truth. What I have is a witness of the spiritual truth of the Book of Mormon, and neither the historicity question (of Christ or the Book of Mormon), nor any actions by leaders, nor any attacks by TBMs, can dim that. I have at times doubted it, questioned it, criticised it, tried to rationalise it, but in the end my conscience will not allow me to forget it. I don't expect everyone to be the same, but the attacks get wearisome, and I fully understand I will be seen as a hypocrite for believing in a book which contains teachings I have not always lived up to, and do not live up to now in many parts, but I do believe the Book of Mormon is a divine revelation. Because I can't meet its high standards does not negate the truth, as I see it. So why fight it? When I look at the complexity and design and inspiration of the Book of Mormon, and regardless of all the theories of its creation, including mine, I see a higher intelligence at work. Others will never see this as I do, and believe its a fraud, and therefore we will disagree.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
Because those men were not perfect, sometimes malicious, and I believe sometimes out of harmony with God. Does this invalidate the Book of Mormon? Does this prove the Church untrue? They did not always live up to the revelations given to them. No where in LDS scripture were some of these actions justified. So this is a false deduction:

a) The prophets were sometimes wrong, and even committed acts that would be condemned by God.

b) Therefore the Church is untrue.

No man is a repository of truth. What I have is a witness of the spiritual truth of the Book of Mormon, and neither the historicity question (of Christ or the Book of Mormon), nor any actions by leaders, nor any attacks by TBMs, can dim that. I have at times doubted it, questioned it, criticised it, tried to rationalise it, but in the end my conscience will not allow me to forget it. I don't expect everyone to be the same, but the attacks get wearisome, and I fully understand I will be seen as a hypocrite for believing in a book which contains teachings I have not always lived up to, and do not live up to now in many parts, but I do believe the Book of Mormon is a divine revelation. Because I can't meet its high standards does not negate the truth, as I see it. So why fight it? When I look at the complexity and design and inspiration of the Book of Mormon, and regardless of all the theories of its creation, including mine, I see a higher intelligence at work. Others will never see this as I do, and believe its a fraud, and therefore we will disagree.


You are a basketcase Ray. On the one hand you go on about how Mormons have higher moral standands than non Mormons...then you go on about how Mormon leaders were at times malicious, at other times committed acts that were condemned of God, then you talk about yourself not being particularly moral, but hey...the good thing is you do believe the Book of Mormon to be divinely inspired. You are all over the place Ray. You don't seem to have a solid appreciation on what makes a person moral. If leaders can't get it right, then how on earth can you assume that followers are going to? And what puts you in a position to judge the morality of others when apparently you acknowledge you can't seem to get it right yourself.

So much for the Book of Mormon being a moral guide or having any positive influence on morals of humans. It is a joke for you to suggest you ...that you somehow know the Book of Mormon to be true.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:
Ray A wrote:
Because those men were not perfect, sometimes malicious, and I believe sometimes out of harmony with God. Does this invalidate the Book of Mormon? Does this prove the Church untrue? They did not always live up to the revelations given to them. No where in LDS scripture were some of these actions justified. So this is a false deduction:

a) The prophets were sometimes wrong, and even committed acts that would be condemned by God.

b) Therefore the Church is untrue.

No man is a repository of truth. What I have is a witness of the spiritual truth of the Book of Mormon, and neither the historicity question (of Christ or the Book of Mormon), nor any actions by leaders, nor any attacks by TBMs, can dim that. I have at times doubted it, questioned it, criticised it, tried to rationalise it, but in the end my conscience will not allow me to forget it. I don't expect everyone to be the same, but the attacks get wearisome, and I fully understand I will be seen as a hypocrite for believing in a book which contains teachings I have not always lived up to, and do not live up to now in many parts, but I do believe the Book of Mormon is a divine revelation. Because I can't meet its high standards does not negate the truth, as I see it. So why fight it? When I look at the complexity and design and inspiration of the Book of Mormon, and regardless of all the theories of its creation, including mine, I see a higher intelligence at work. Others will never see this as I do, and believe its a fraud, and therefore we will disagree.


You are a basketcase Ray. On the one hand you go on about how Mormons have higher moral standands than non Mormons...then you go on about how Mormon leaders were at times malicious, at other times committed acts that were condemned of God, then you talk about yourself not being particularly moral, but hey...the good thing is you do believe the Book of Mormon to be divinely inspired. You are all over the place Ray. You don't seem to have a solid appreciation on what makes a person moral. If leaders can't get it right, then how on earth can you assume that followers are going to? And what puts you in a position to judge the morality of others when apparently you acknowledge you can't seem to get it right yourself.

So much for the Book of Mormon being a moral guide or having any positive influence on morals of humans. It is a joke for you to suggest you ...that you somehow know the Book of Mormon to be true.


Marg, I think you and Noel should go on a date.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
Marg, I think you and Noel should go on a date.


Ray you don't need to copy your previous post and my post..to write a one liner particularly when your post follows mine which you are replying to.

I'm not interested in dates Ray, remember I'm married. I have better morals that that! Yup an atheist, you has been married for 34 years, and her parents have been married for 62 years, her husband's parents as well never divorced. And we are all atheists. None have been to jail, none are alcoholics, none are criminals, all are extremely honest, and guess what we did that without believing in a book portrayed as being sacred, by con men no less. Imagine that. Perhaps you are doing something wrong?
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:
Ray A wrote:
Marg, I think you and Noel should go on a date.


Ray you don't need to copy your previous post and my post..to write a one liner particularly when your post follows mine which you are replying to.

I'm not interested in dates Ray, remember I'm married. I have better morals that that! Yup an atheist, you is been married for 34 years, and her parents have been married for 62 years, her husband's parents as well never divorced. And we are all atheists. None have been to jail, none are alcoholics, none are criminals, all are extremely honest, and guess what we did that without believing in a book portrayed as being sacred, by con men no less. Imagine that. Perhaps you are doing something wrong?


Oh, I envy you. Is this your "plug" for atheism? Seems like you're a good and honourable person. Good on you. It is only base and immoral sinners like me who needs Mormonism. I'm just living in total delusion. You win, Marg. I surrender.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:

Oh, I envy you. Is this your "plug" for atheism? Seems like you're a good and honourable person. Good on you. It is only base and immoral sinners like me who needs Mormonism. I'm just living in total delusion. You win, Marg. I surrender.


Wait a minute Ray, who is saying you need Mormonism? And if Mormonism is so great then darn it, get back to church Ray, before you turn into a criminal.

It's to people such as yourself that something needs to be said. Countless times I've heard you go on about how Mormons are morally superior to non Mormons. And frankly it gets tiring reading that propaganda. And that is all it is, propaganda spread by religious people encouraged by their church so they can feel superior to others.

Your comments are so ridiculous, when you go on about how moral Mormons are but then a few sentences later admit Mormon leaders weren't, they were only human. You just are not consistent. And as usual your thinking is all over the place.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:Wait a minute Ray, who is saying you need Mormonism? And if Mormonism is so great then darn it, get back to church Ray, before you turn into a criminal.


You're right. I feel criminal tendencies coming on. Perhaps I do need the Church. For all I know I could go out and bash and rob someone tonight. I feel like a moon with a dark side which no knows about. Not even I. It scares me. Thanks for your advice, Marg. Maybe I should listen to atheists more?

It's to people such as yourself that something needs to be said. Countless times I've heard you go on about how Mormons are morally superior to non Mormons. And frankly it gets tiring reading that propaganda. And that is all it is, propaganda spread by religious people encouraged by their church so they can feel superior to others.


Well what do you expect? We are really inferior, but the superiority complex at least makes us feel good for the moment. Can't you tolerate a little delusion on our part, so that we can at least experience five minutes of happiness? Shucks!

Your comments are so ridiculous, when you go on about how moral Mormons are but then a few sentences later admit Mormon leaders weren't, they were only human. You just are not consistent. And as usual your thinking is all over the place.


I agree. I'm mixed up, and muddled. I'm looking for pots of spiritual gold at the end of rainbows. I was born a sucker, and it looks like I'll die a sucker. Every one here and on RFM tells me so. So I guess it must be true.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Ray A wrote:
You're right. I feel criminal tendencies coming on.


That's how you portray exmormons, they've all abandoned their moral values according to your thinking.

Well what do you expect? We are really inferior, but the superiority complex at least makes us feel good for the moment. Can't you tolerate a little delusion on our part, so that we can at least experience five minutes of happiness? Shucks!


Ray the propaganda on morality of Mormons and immorality on non Mormons is tiring. And your propaganda does not consider that Mormons are equal in moral values to non Mormons, you do believe they are superior. I don't post how atheists are morally superior because I don't for a second presume that, but I do know that atheists I know are NOT immoral. Somehow you manage to equate those who don't drink with being moral. As if that is the most important gage for it. Not so, as long as someone does something which doesn't hurt others, it's not immoral.


I agree. I'm mixed up, and muddled. I'm looking for pots of spiritual gold at the end of rainbows. I was born a sucker, and it looks like I'll die a sucker. Every one here and on RFM tells me so. So I guess it must be true.


And I don't for one second think you believe that.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

marg wrote:That's how you portray exmormons, they've all abandoned their moral values according to your thinking.


No, Marg. I do not believe all ex-Mormons have abandoned their moral values. A significant portion have, and that is what I argue. Until we have studies done, we will not know definitely. My anecdotal evidence is that one of the most popular threads on RFM is, "What are we drinking tonight?" Fine, but are you going to bash or cheat on your wife after you imbibe? Maybe not. Don't delude yourself to what alcohol can do.


Ray the propaganda on morality of Mormons and immorality on non Mormons is tiring. And your propaganda does not consider that Mormons are equal in moral values to non Mormons, you do believe they are superior. I don't post how atheists are morally superior because I don't for a second presume that, but I do know that atheists I know are NOT immoral. Somehow you manage to equate those who don't drink with being moral. As if that is the most important gage for it. Not so, as long as someone does something which doesn't hurt others, it's not immoral.


I just qualified above, Marg, that I don't care how much exmos drink, as long as they are under control. But alcohol lowers inhibitions. It creates the sort of wanton society I see every night. People who would not do things sober which they do when drunk. Will you deny this? Come and spend a night with me driving taxis and getting a "taste" of the real world. You have no idea. You and your relativist ideas do not impress me. You think all atheists will think like you, right? You and your atheist friends are building a bedrock for the destruction of society because you naïvely believe that our youth can believe in - NOTHING. Accountable to no one! They have no respect for the law, the police, or other people. By all means drink your table wine, but if you think our youth are going to be satisfied with "table wine", you have another think coming.



And I don't for one second think you believe that.


You wouldn't work out what I believe if you lived to the age of Methuselah, and that's not a reflection on Methuselah's intelligence.
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