? for Ray A

[_Ray A]

Ray you have been going on about how Mormons are more moral than a significant portion of exmormons. And you warranted that with not only observing threads started by exmormons "What are we drinking tonight" but with your personal anedotal evidence in which you inferred that the majority of people who drink, will do something immoral.

You wrote: " My anecdotal evidence is that one of the most popular threads on RFM is, "What are we drinking tonight?" Fine, but are you going to bash or cheat on your wife after you imbibe? Maybe not. Don't delude yourself to what alcohol can do."

Now it appears you are attempting to backtrack and take back your inference that drinking typically leads to immoral behavior. If you do that Ray, then you have no justification that exmormons are substantially more immoral than Mormons.

I think Mormons, and Christians who practice their faith, which means following the moral codes of their faith, do live better lives. My point was about drinking to excess and doing bad things. I see these effects upon people every day, people who would normally not do such bad things. My perceptions are influenced not only studies of the negative effects of over-indulgence in alcohol upon society, but what I personally experience with such people.

I was not "backtracking", simply observing what I saw on that particular thread, and trying to make a fair observation. This has NO relation to my general point about the negative effects of over-indulgence. My point was, you want to drink, fine, but if you over-indulge and do bad things that's wrong. Alcohol is one of the primary causes of domestic violence in Australia, and most of it occurs against women and children. I don't know about America.

previously: Believe in nothing? What is so wonderful, so fulfulling about believing in a fictional book, as if it is from a God (divinely inspired) What is so great about worshipping a God? What is so morally inspiring about a God belief. Why do you presume to think that somehow those beliefs give one purposeful meaning in life?

<snip>

My comment was in response to what you wrote: You said: "You and your atheist friends are building a bedrock for the destruction of society because you naïvely believe that our youth can believe in - NOTHING. Accountable to no one! "

And that has been my observation. Whether you like it or not, I find that most people who have strong religious beliefs behave better. You obviously don't like this, but it is clearly what I see. Like the sun shining at midday.

I fail to see how belief in a God, amount to believing in something which translates into better morals than not having a God belief.

Because you fail to see something doesn't mean it's not accurate.

[_beastie]

I'm not abandoning this thread, just taking the time to put together a more thorough response.

[_marg]

My comment was in response to what you wrote: You said: "You and your atheist friends are building a bedrock for the destruction of society because you naïvely believe that our youth can believe in - NOTHING. Accountable to no one! "

And that has been my observation. Whether you like it or not, I find that most people who have strong religious beliefs behave better. You obviously don't like this, but it is clearly what I see. Like the sun shining at midday.

It's not a question of not liking it, it's a matter of does evidence warrant it. And what does one mean by "behave better". While you might focus on alcohol consumption I might focus on honesty as being more important and a better indicator. And in fact, I do find Mormons based on posts that I've read to be more dishonest than exmormons. They are very willing to lie if it supports the church than tell the truth which might not be supportive of the church. "Mild before meat is one example." All sorts of justification for polygamy are used instead of personal rational reasoning. Justifications are concocted for how a con man (head in the hat treasure seeker) is not a con man when he still employs a head in the hat to write the Book of Mormon. It is pervasive attitude that the church must be protected at all costs even it one has to lie, or resort to authority instead of rational reasoning.

[_Ray A]

My comment was in response to what you wrote: You said: "You and your atheist friends are building a bedrock for the destruction of society because you naïvely believe that our youth can believe in - NOTHING. Accountable to no one! "


It's not a question of not liking it, it's a matter of does evidence warrant it. And what does one mean by "behave better". While you might focus on alcohol consumption I might focus on honesty as being more important and a better indicator. And in fact, I do find Mormons based on posts that I've read to be more dishonest than exmormons. They are very willing to lie if it supports the church than tell the truth which might not be supportive of the church. "Mild before meat is one example." All sorts of justification for polygamy are used instead of personal rational reasoning. Justifications are concocted for how a con man (head in the hat treasure seeker) is not a con man when he still employs a head in the hat to write the Book of Mormon. It is pervasive attitude that the church must be protected at all costs even it one has to lie, or resort to authority instead of rational reasoning.

I do not agree with aspects of LDS apologetics. And I find the evidence, or lack of it, for the historicity of the Book of Mormon unconvincing. I do find the internal evidences impressive, which I have always said. I don't believe, for example, that Dan Peterson is lying when he sincerely sees evidences which convince him of historicity. He believes, honestly, that there is enough evidence for historicity. I see no need to impugn his character for that.

If you believe that because Joseph Smith put his head into a hat then that makes him a "con man", that's a very superficial way, in my opinion, of judging someone a con man.

What I am talking about is not honesty in apologetics, but the fragile social fabric and our society (in Oz) which is falling apart with an increasing number of junkies, thieves, greed, vandalism, and general lawlessness. There is little moral compass to stop this. I'm not talking about abstaining from tea, coffee, or alcohol, but mainly the unethical treatment of others. My eyes have been opened to this in a much more poignant way in the last three months, and I hear from nearly everyone I meet about their disillusionment with youth in particular. I could tell you dozens of stories. Last Saturday night I had the unfortunate experience of having to transport two men who had been bashed in a pub fight (a regular occurrence now). The father of one of the men, who was about my age, turned to me and said with a tinge of sorrow, "it's a changing world, isn't it?". If you want to carp about dishonesty in Mormon apologetics while ignoring things like this, then you are missing the wider picture. People are disillusioned with the way society has gone, and this correlates to a loss of values, to a time when everyone could go to bed at night and leave their back doors open. A time when pubs and clubs closed at 10pm, and on Sundays at 6pm. People are now wishing we could go back to those days. Now the pubs and clubs go to 3am-5am, and some open 24 hours, and then the drunken brawls start.

You are concerned about dishonesty in LDS apologetics, I am concerned by incidents like watching a male and female bash another female who was on the ground, and the male kick her in the head with his boot, but fortunately police were nearby and saved her life. That same night a man was bashed to death in a pub fight a few suburbs away. I transported his widow. The scale of this lawlessness and violence has to be seen to be believed. And what are the exmos doing? Trying to destroy a Church which could inculcate the very values people feel they have lost.

[_Mister Scratch]

Ah, I see. In other words, you have no case. The truth is that I was unfairly booted off of the ironically named FAIRboard. I have said it before and I will say it again: if DCP wants to offer up a sincere apology for smearing me, I will permanently cease posting.

Get over it, Scatch. Why should there be an apology when you've ridiculed him ad nauseam?

"Ridiculed"? Or criticized? Personally, I see a clear difference.

Again, evidence? It is true that I've done a fair number of posts on DCP/juliann, but let's face it: they are among the most interesting posters on the fittingly named MADboard. At least I've never said that they are on a par with the Nazis, and that there nasty comment about me and others will "lead to violence."

And I have never said any ex-Mormons were "on a par with Nazis". I have read where many ex-Mormons refer to "Nazi Mormons".

LOL. Yeah, "never." Do you not remember your earlier posts on this thread? To refresh your memory: not only did you say that RfMer criticism of TBMs is going to lead to "genocide," you also went on to compare RfM with the Nazis and the KKK! Do you not remember that?

Your argument continues to dissipate. Seriously, is this the best you've got?

Don't worry, I said I would eventually leave you alone, but it looks like you want me to pursue you? Obviously, you'd want the last word with an echo. You're obsessed, Scratch.

I am not any more "obsessed" than you or DCP, or any number of other posters.

Okay, I'll be waiting. I'm very interested to hear his explanation. I'm also interested to know why he sent those "GA-wannabe" emails to Rollo.

I know nothing about "GA wannabe" emails because I haven't seen them.

They been posted to this board multiple times. Perhaps if Rollo sees this, he can re-post them. DCP essentially told Rollo that he would suffer 'eternal damnation' for pointing out his (i.e., DCP's) gossipmongering. This was apparently a very, very embarrassing episode for the Good Professor, perhaps even on a par with Prof. Hamblin's "Metcalfe is Butthead" gaffe.

First of all, why are you relying on a thesaurus for your definition? Second, idiomatically speaking, the word "imbibe" means "to drink." I see that in your post above you conveniently edited out your nearly 200-year-old example from Thoreau. I wonder why....

Like I said, you'd want the last word with an echo. Better write Roget's and tell them they're archaic. Or better, start a blog: "Mister Scratch's corrections of Roget's".

I don't blame Roget's for their inclusion of the archaic usage. I blame *you* for trying to use a thesaurus in order to sound fancy.

[_Ray A]

"Ridiculed"? Or criticized? Personally, I see a clear difference.

Both!

LOL. Yeah, "never." Do you not remember your earlier posts on this thread? To refresh your memory: not only did you say that RfMer criticism of TBMs is going to lead to "genocide," you also went on to compare RfM with the Nazis and the KKK! Do you not remember that?

As usual your selective reading. This is not new for you, Scratch. Once again, your comprehension skills are very poor. You have perfected the art of twisting statements.

I'll reply some more later, but now I have work to do.

[_beastie]

Ray replied to Mr. Scratch:

And I have never said any ex-Mormons were "on a par with Nazis". I have read where many ex-Mormons refer to "Nazi Mormons".

But earlier on this thread Ray said, ironically in regards to the same Mr. Scratch:

How can the chief instigator of verbal abuse "speak out"? You with your "revenge campaign" and your obsessive hatred of FAIR/MAD/DCP/Juliann/Mormons. Your hate list is so long Eichmann would use you as a texbook reference tool.

Ray,

Someone who apparently doesn't fully understand the words he wrote himself shouldn't criticize other people's reading comprehension.

I'll be back later with the full reply. I'm about half done.

[_Bond...James Bond]

What I am talking about is not honesty in apologetics, but the fragile social fabric and our society (in Oz) which is falling apart with an increasing number of junkies, thieves, greed, vandalism, and general lawlessness. There is little moral compass to stop this. I'm not talking about abstaining from tea, coffee, or alcohol, but mainly the unethical treatment of others. My eyes have been opened to this in a much more poignant way in the last three months, and I hear from nearly everyone I meet about their disillusionment with youth in particular. I could tell you dozens of stories. Last Saturday night I had the unfortunate experience of having to transport two men who had been bashed in a pub fight (a regular occurrence now). The father of one of the men, who was about my age, turned to me and said with a tinge of sorrow, "it's a changing world, isn't it?". If you want to carp about dishonesty in Mormon apologetics while ignoring things like this, then you are missing the wider picture. People are disillusioned with the way society has gone, and this correlates to a loss of values, to a time when everyone could go to bed at night and leave their back doors open. A time when pubs and clubs closed at 10pm, and on Sundays at 6pm. People are now wishing we could go back to those days. Now the pubs and clubs go to 3am-5am, and some open 24 hours, and then the drunken brawls start.

Bad stuff happens.

Bad people hurt good people.
Bad people hurt bad people.
Good people hurt good people.
Good people hurt bad people.
Religious people hurt non-religious people.
Non-religious people hurt religious people.
Non-religious people hurt non-religous people.
Religous people hurt religious people.
LDS people hurt LDS people.
Non-LDS people hurt Non-LDS people.
Non-LDS people hurt LDS people.
LDS people hurt non-LDS people.
Drunk people hurt sober people.
Drunk people hurt drunk people.
Sober people hurt drunk people.
Sober people hurt sober people.
People hurt people.

That's life, and so far we haven't been able to remove the violent element or find a way to keep people from hurting each other. There's nothing we can do to stop it beyond not hurting each other. We can't have one police for every person. What can we do?

You are concerned about dishonesty in LDS apologetics, I am concerned by incidents like watching a male and female bash another female who was on the ground, and the male kick her in the head with his boot, but fortunately police were nearby and saved her life. That same night a man was bashed to death in a pub fight a few suburbs away. I transported his widow. The scale of this lawlessness and violence has to be seen to be believed.

Bad stuff happens. It always has and always will. What are people supposed to do beyond not hurting each other?

And what are the exmos doing? Trying to destroy a Church which could inculcate the very values people feel they have lost.

So since people beat and kill each other exmos shouldn't say whatever or do whatever they want, including advocating against a church they feel has been deceptive to them? Screw Recovery or whatever....if they want to complain, bitch, moan, or whatever let them...what concern is it to you, me, or DCP?

[_Ray A]

Ray replied to Mr. Scratch:

And I have never said any ex-Mormons were "on a par with Nazis". I have read where many ex-Mormons refer to "Nazi Mormons".

But earlier on this thread Ray said, ironically in regards to the same Mr. Scratch:

How can the chief instigator of verbal abuse "speak out"? You with your "revenge campaign" and your obsessive hatred of FAIR/MAD/DCP/Juliann/Mormons. Your hate list is so long Eichmann would use you as a texbook reference tool.

Ray,

Someone who apparently doesn't fully understand the words he wrote himself shouldn't criticize other people's reading comprehension.

I'll be back later with the full reply. I'm about half done.

Is Scratch an exmo? I wouldn't know. Was this directed to exmos?

Here was Scratch's comment:

LOL. Yeah, "never." Do you not remember your earlier posts on this thread? To refresh your memory: not only did you say that RfMer criticism of TBMs is going to lead to "genocide," you also went on to compare RfM with the Nazis and the KKK! Do you not remember that?

I'd like to see those statements I wrote, and the context. by the way, is anyone addressing the "Nazi Mormon" usage?

[_beastie]

OH, please, Ray, spare me the desperate maneuvers. "Oh, is scratch an exmomon??" Give me frigging break. Just admit you've been caught in your own hyperbole and move on.

I already told you I object to the Nazi Mormon reference, and in fact, I objected on RFM the very night you posted that. And I asked you if you intend to justify your bad behavior by the bad behavior of the very group you clearly loathe.