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_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Ray A wrote:What concern is it to DCP? You can't be serious. Have you been vilified on RFM? What if your real name was known, and you were called a "barricuda", a "snake", and "immoral". Would you just shrink and ignore it? When the rocks and stones aren't coming your way it's very easy to lecture. Isn't it?


It's his hobby to defend Mormonism and he does it publicly. He's going to catch crap because he's perceived as defending lies and deceptions by exmos. Every public person has their critics....but not every public person actually answers these critics. DCP could learn to let some of the crap slide.

Yeah it's easy to lecture. Doesn't make what I say less relevant.
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Apr 04, 2007 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Ray A wrote:
beastie wrote:Ray replied to Mr. Scratch:

And I have never said any ex-Mormons were "on a par with Nazis". I have read where many ex-Mormons refer to "Nazi Mormons".


But earlier on this thread Ray said, ironically in regards to the same Mr. Scratch:

How can the chief instigator of verbal abuse "speak out"? You with your "revenge campaign" and your obsessive hatred of FAIR/MAD/DCP/Juliann/Mormons. Your hate list is so long Eichmann would use you as a texbook reference tool.


Ray,

Someone who apparently doesn't fully understand the words he wrote himself shouldn't criticize other people's reading comprehension.

I'll be back later with the full reply. I'm about half done.


Is Scratch an exmo? I wouldn't know. Was this directed to exmos?

Here was Scratch's comment:

LOL. Yeah, "never." Do you not remember your earlier posts on this thread? To refresh your memory: not only did you say that RfMer criticism of TBMs is going to lead to "genocide," you also went on to compare RfM with the Nazis and the KKK! Do you not remember that?


I'd like to see those statements I wrote, and the context. by the way, is anyone addressing the "Nazi Mormon" usage?


Here you go, Ray:

Ray A wrote:
beastie wrote:
Ray A wrote::
Your hate list is so long Eichmann would use you as a texbook reference tool.


You must be kidding me.

I'm going to tell it to you flat-out, Ray, because I respect you enough to do so. To compare scratch's posts to a nazi criminal is simply irrational. Moreover, it is extremely disrespectful to the victims of the Nazis.

I also believe your dire predictions of violence against today's Mormons because of the "hate speech" critics engage in on the internet, disrespects the memory of the real LDS victims of actual real life violence in the early days of the church.

By aggrandizing the criticisms of a few LDS apologists who, by your own admission, sometimes invite that criticism due to their posting style more than their belief system, you minimize the violence and persecution human beings can actually suffer in this life.


Sounds very PC, beastie. I am not minimising what Jews went through. I am trying to STOP the same thing eventually happening to Mormons. Way out? Fantastic? Unbelievable? Look at all the pathetic anti-Mormon hate sites on the web. Look at the vile, vulgar, sick, demented, hate-filled language on RFM. This site has to be the most hypocritical site on the internet. In the name of "recovery" they sponsor hate and bigotry. This is what these bigots call "recovery". Let me repeat it, "recovery". And how do they "recover" from Mormonism? By BASHING Mormons. And you talk about ME?
(bold emphasis added)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Ray, but it seems to me that your use of phrases such as "what Jews went through" and "I am trying to STOP the same thing eventually happening to Mormons" is quite an obvious attempt on your part to equate exmos/RfM with the Nazis. There is no (intentional) "twisting" or sophistry here at all on my part. Can you please tell me how I misinterpreted what you wrote? Did you not really intend to equate exmos and RfM with the Nazi campaign of genocide? Also, did you not really intend to compare me with Eichmann? (And on that note, how is that not worse than the names that your beloved Prof. P. has been called?)
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Mister Scratch wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, Ray, but it seems to me that your use of phrases such as "what Jews went through" and "I am trying to STOP the same thing eventually happening to Mormons" is quite an obvious attempt on your part to equate exmos/RfM with the Nazis. There is no (intentional) "twisting" or sophistry here at all on my part. Can you please tell me how I misinterpreted what you wrote? Did you not really intend to equate exmos and RfM with the Nazi campaign of genocide? Also, did you not really intend to compare me with Eichmann? (And on that note, how is that not worse than the names that your beloved Prof. P. has been called?)


How many times do I have to explain myself? Okay, one more time. Did you understand my comparisons to Martin Luther? What did Luther do? He was an anti-Semite, anti-Jewish. He believed that Jews were liars, and that they were a threat to the world. He painted them in the worst possible light. Luther's writings eventually prejudiced Germans against the Jewish people. It did not happen overnight. Important point to bear in mind. Four hundred years later his writings were used by Nazis, and Hitler said he greatly admired the writings of Luther. Anti-Jewish writings, not just by Luther, prejudiced many people. The Jews had something in common with Mormons - they claimed that God spoke to their prophets, and they were The Chosen People. This also infuriated many. Like the Mormons, they were driven out of the lands they settled. Many settled in Germany and Poland, some in Russia, and various other parts of the world. The Jews were an industrious people who quickly rose to positions of power, and produced some of the finest minds the world has seen. Though small in numbers, their influence spread far. With the rise of Nazism, and with Hitler's anti-Jewish ideas, influenced by the writings of Martin Luther, and general anti-Jewish sentiment, here is an example of what Hitler said in 1922:

"His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilisation, though he has destroyed civilisations by the hundred...everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him."


Here was another problem:

Anti-semitism has been rife throughout European history, largely because they were a distinct, easily identifiable group, who refused to integrate. (Those who really wanted to integrate converted.) Of course now we see pluralism as a virtue, and a variety of ethnicities and religions as a positive thing. However, if you want to set yourself up as the totalitarian dictator of a NATION then you have to establish a clear identity for that nation and stick to it; variety is an anathema.


In April 1939 Hitler said:

"Only when this Jewish bacillus infecting the life of peoples has been removed can one hope to establish a co-operation amongst the nations which shall be built up on a lasting understanding."


In his book Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor, Peter Wiener wrote:

As so often before, Luther's worst utterances are not fit for quotation or reproduction. “Many of the obscenities occurring in his sermons and writings on the Jews are suggested by proverbs which themselves reek too much of the stable, but which he sometimes still further embellishes” (Grisar). “In his books (on Jews) Luther's peculiar talent for indelicate language reached its climax. He wrote with unchecked ferocity, and indulged freely in his quaint practice of befouling the objects of his hate with imaginary animal excreta” (Lipsky).


In his concluding analysis he wrote:

I think if we see the truth, if we really visualise the existing dangers, if we face the present facts, if we understand their historical origins, connections and influences, if we begin to appreciate the gigantic power spiritual forces have, the evil effect Luther and Lutheranism had on Germany and on Europe—then we have already advanced a great step, then we have—perhaps—already done more than the appeasers and dreamers, idealists and sentimentalists will ever achieve. (My emphasis)


Are you beginning to see where I'm coming from? No, RFMers are not Nazis. Anti-Mormons are not Nazis. Ex-Mormons are not Nazis. Strictly speaking, there are no Nazis today, though the term is used in speech as hyperbole or personal attack. I find the language of hate expressed on RFM, too often (though checked by the more stable posters there), to be of concern. Sure, they are only "venting", sure, they are only a small group, so one wonders how this could have any significant influence. But there is also wider anti-Mormon sentiment, not just on RFM, and curiously this is coming mainly from Ex-Mormons. And today, in particular, what Dr. Peterson calls "secular anti-Mormons":

But this doesn't exhaust the pleasures of that message board. It is rife with personal abuse and bloodcurdling hostility, not uncommonly obscene, directed against people they don't know and haven't even met--against President Hinckley, Joseph Smith, the Brethren, the general membership of the Church, and even, somewhat obsessively, against one particular rather insignificant BYU professor. Ordinary members of the Church--Morgbots or Morons or Sheeple, in the jargon of the board--are routinely stereotyped as insane, tyrannical, cheap, bigoted, ill-mannered, irrational, sexually repressed, stupid, greedy, foolish, rude, poor tippers, sick, brain-dead, and uncultured. There was once even a thread--and I'm not making this up--devoted to discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants. Posts frequently lament the stupidity and gullibility of Church leaders, neighbors, parents, spouses, siblings, and even offspring--who may be wholly unaware of the anonymous poster's secret double life of contemptuous disbelief. It is a splendid cyber illustration of the finger pointing and mocking found in the "great and spacious building" of 1 Nephi. Whenever the poisonous culture of the place is criticized, however, its defenders take refuge in the culture of victimhood, deploying a supposed need for therapeutic self-expression as their all-encompassing excuse.
Contemplating a depressing number of the posters on that board, I've thought to myself, "If this is what liberation from the Mormon 'myth' makes you--a vulgar and sometimes duplicitous crank, cackling with malice and spite--then I would prefer to spend the few brief years left to me (before I dissolve into the irreversible and never-ending oblivion many of the board's posters prophesy for me and all humankind) with people who haven't been liberated. I think of the apostates of Ammonihah, mocking Alma and Amulek in prison, "gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned?"1 Surely the damned will not look much different than this.


http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... onism.html

This is not hyperbole. This is the truth.

I am not trying to be some kind of "saviour" or "knight in shining armour", nor can I "stop" anything. What I am saying is that what Bond refers to as the "crap" has always been around. Dan Peterson is a public figure, and he has had criticism for a long time, but in recent times the viciousness of that criticism has reached a new tempo, as described above, not just against him, but the Church and Church leaders in general. My question, and long-time concern is - HOW far will this eventually go? Those who do not learn from the past will be condemned to repeat it. You do not know nor understand what you are stirring by your bile, your innuendo, your anti-Mormonism, nor the possible long term consequences, in the name of "free speech". Think again why so many posters will NOT come here. Because this is becoming like Martin Luther's vindictiveness and petty hatreds against the Jews. RFM is far worse. These are only two forums, but if they indicate general ex-Mormon sentiment in the wider community, which I think and hope they don't, then everyone should be concerned. This is not just a matter of "taking the crap", it is a phenomenon worth observing and watching, and checking. It's not my intention to kill free speech, but what I'm seeing is an abuse of free speech. How much influence will the Internet have? More than you imagine. It is claimed that the Internet has led to many leaving the Church, and if this is really the case, why should we imagine that the bile will not also influence people on a large scale? How many will come to hate Mormonism and Mormons? We can never predict at this stage. That is why I said have your part in this obsession, but I will have no part of it.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Ray A,

I think you're confusing religious antisemitism (which Luther believed and led to things such as Jewish persecution during the Inquisition) and Racial antisemitism (which was what Hitler and other pseudo social scientists of the 19th and 20th century believed). Hitler may have used some of Luther's quotes or praised his ideas about Jews, but Hitler's perception of Jews as an inferior class was based on pseudo scientific ideas such as eugenics and social darwinism. Luther was more of a traditional antisemite (belief that Jews killed Jesus etc). They were both antisemites, but for different reasons.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Bond...James Bond wrote:Ray A,

I think you're confusing religious antisemitism (which Luther believed and led to things such as Jewish persecution during the Inquisition) and Racial antisemitism (which was what Hitler and other pseudo social scientists of the 19th and 20th century believed). Hitler may have used some of Luther's quotes or praised his ideas about Jews, but Hitler's perception of Jews as an inferior class was based on pseudo scientific ideas such as eugenics and social darwinism. Luther was more of a traditional antisemite (belief that Jews killed Jesus etc). They were both antisemites, but for different reasons.


The Wiki definition does distinguish, but Martin Luther wanted Jews driven out, unless they converted to Christianity. He also believed they were inferior. Eugenics and social Darwinism were after Luther's time, so we can't say what he would have thought about that. From the commentary preamble to Luther's book, The Jews and Their Lies :

A number of points must, however, be made. The most important concerns the language used. Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career....We do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century. Second, although Luther's comments seem to be proto-Nazi, they are better seen as part of tradition of Medieval Christian anti-Semitism. While there is little doubt that Christian anti-Semitism laid the social and cultural basis for modern anti-Semitism, modern anti-Semitism does differ in being based on pseudo-scientific notions of race. The Nazis imprisoned and killed Jews who had converted to Christianity: Luther would have welcomed them.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... _Jews.html

So yes, there are differences, but Luther generated hatred against the Jews by the language he used. Hitler went further, by actually killing them. Luther also believed that there was Jewish financial/economic conspiracy, and he disliked the way Jews became rich and gained power in business.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Ray A wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, Ray, but it seems to me that your use of phrases such as "what Jews went through" and "I am trying to STOP the same thing eventually happening to Mormons" is quite an obvious attempt on your part to equate exmos/RfM with the Nazis. There is no (intentional) "twisting" or sophistry here at all on my part. Can you please tell me how I misinterpreted what you wrote? Did you not really intend to equate exmos and RfM with the Nazi campaign of genocide? Also, did you not really intend to compare me with Eichmann? (And on that note, how is that not worse than the names that your beloved Prof. P. has been called?)


How many times do I have to explain myself? Okay, one more time. Did you understand my comparisons to Martin Luther? What did Luther do? He was an anti-Semite, anti-Jewish. He believed that Jews were liars, and that they were a threat to the world. He painted them in the worst possible light. Luther's writings eventually prejudiced Germans against the Jewish people. It did not happen overnight. Important point to bear in mind. Four hundred years later his writings were used by Nazis, and Hitler said he greatly admired the writings of Luther.


Logic? This is post hoc, ergo propter hoc. I.e., why blame Luther among hundreds---if not thousands---of people who wrote anti-Semitic things? Why not blame Shakespeare for his representation of Shylock in The Merchant of Venice?

Anti-Jewish writings, not just by Luther, prejudiced many people. The Jews had something in common with Mormons - they claimed that God spoke to their prophets, and they were The Chosen People. This also infuriated many. Like the Mormons, they were driven out of the lands they settled.


Mormons have not been "driven out of the lands they settled" in over a hundred years. I doubt very much that they will be "driven out" of the Zion Corridor any time soon. Do you have a better analogy, or is this just more of the TBM persecution complex?

Many settled in Germany and Poland, some in Russia, and various other parts of the world. The Jews were an industrious people who quickly rose to positions of power, and produced some of the finest minds the world has seen.


Again, I think your analogy is awfully shaky. Where are the Mormon equivalents of the great Jewish authors? Or the great Jewish musicians? Face it: Mormonism crushes these sorts of impulses. As Eugene England said, "The first great Mormon author will be excommunicated from the Church."

Though small in numbers, their influence spread far. With the rise of Nazism, and with Hitler's anti-Jewish ideas, influenced by the writings of Martin Luther, and general anti-Jewish sentiment, here is an example of what Hitler said in 1922:

"His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilisation, though he has destroyed civilisations by the hundred...everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him."


Here was another problem:

Anti-semitism has been rife throughout European history, largely because they were a distinct, easily identifiable group, who refused to integrate. (Those who really wanted to integrate converted.) Of course now we see pluralism as a virtue, and a variety of ethnicities and religions as a positive thing. However, if you want to set yourself up as the totalitarian dictator of a NATION then you have to establish a clear identity for that nation and stick to it; variety is an anathema.


In April 1939 Hitler said:

"Only when this Jewish bacillus infecting the life of peoples has been removed can one hope to establish a co-operation amongst the nations which shall be built up on a lasting understanding."


In his book Martin Luther: Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor, Peter Wiener wrote:

As so often before, Luther's worst utterances are not fit for quotation or reproduction. “Many of the obscenities occurring in his sermons and writings on the Jews are suggested by proverbs which themselves reek too much of the stable, but which he sometimes still further embellishes” (Grisar). “In his books (on Jews) Luther's peculiar talent for indelicate language reached its climax. He wrote with unchecked ferocity, and indulged freely in his quaint practice of befouling the objects of his hate with imaginary animal excreta” (Lipsky).


In his concluding analysis he wrote:

I think if we see the truth, if we really visualise the existing dangers, if we face the present facts, if we understand their historical origins, connections and influences, if we begin to appreciate the gigantic power spiritual forces have, the evil effect Luther and Lutheranism had on Germany and on Europe—then we have already advanced a great step, then we have—perhaps—already done more than the appeasers and dreamers, idealists and sentimentalists will ever achieve. (My emphasis)


Are you beginning to see where I'm coming from?


No, since your quote require that antis, exmos, and so forth cleave to "spiritual forces." The reason---as evidenced by your own quote---that anti-Semitism flourished had to do with its connection to religious belief. If you would like to demonstrate how RfM and its ilk dabble in some kind of spiritual mysticism that will eventually cause people to irrationally attack Mormons and Mormonism, then I'm all ears.

No, RFMers are not Nazis. Anti-Mormons are not Nazis. Ex-Mormons are not Nazis.


Thanks for finally clearing that up. Indeed, you have come a long ways from your initial vitriol.

Strictly speaking, there are no Nazis today, though the term is used in speech as hyperbole or personal attack.


No kidding.

I find the language of hate expressed on RFM, too often (though checked by the more stable posters there), to be of concern. Sure, they are only "venting", sure, they are only a small group, so one wonders how this could have any significant influence. But there is also wider anti-Mormon sentiment, not just on RFM, and curiously this is coming mainly from Ex-Mormons.


Again, the problem with your comparison (in my opinion) is that your own sources view religion as being necessary for the mindless, lockstep behavior and thinking that led to the Nazi genocide. Ex-Mormonism is, by definition, a lack of religion.

And today, in particular, what Dr. Peterson calls "secular anti-Mormons":

But this doesn't exhaust the pleasures of that message board. It is rife with personal abuse and bloodcurdling hostility, not uncommonly obscene, directed against people they don't know and haven't even met--against President Hinckley, Joseph Smith, the Brethren, the general membership of the Church, and even, somewhat obsessively, against one particular rather insignificant BYU professor. Ordinary members of the Church--Morgbots or Morons or Sheeple, in the jargon of the board--are routinely stereotyped as insane, tyrannical, cheap, bigoted, ill-mannered, irrational, sexually repressed, stupid, greedy, foolish, rude, poor tippers, sick, brain-dead, and uncultured.


Right. And posters on *this* board are "routinely stereotyped" as "brazen liars," lovers of porn, Sons of Perdition, "apostates," haters, vulgarians, etc., etc., etc.

There was once even a thread--and I'm not making this up--devoted to discussing how Mormons noisily slurp their soup in restaurants. Posts frequently lament the stupidity and gullibility of Church leaders, neighbors, parents, spouses, siblings, and even offspring--who may be wholly unaware of the anonymous poster's secret double life of contemptuous disbelief. It is a splendid cyber illustration of the finger pointing and mocking found in the "great and spacious building" of 1 Nephi. Whenever the poisonous culture of the place is criticized, however, its defenders take refuge in the culture of victimhood, deploying a supposed need for therapeutic self-expression as their all-encompassing excuse.
Contemplating a depressing number of the posters on that board, I've thought to myself, "If this is what liberation from the Mormon 'myth' makes you--a vulgar and sometimes duplicitous crank, cackling with malice and spite--then I would prefer to spend the few brief years left to me (before I dissolve into the irreversible and never-ending oblivion many of the board's posters prophesy for me and all humankind) with people who haven't been liberated. I think of the apostates of Ammonihah, mocking Alma and Amulek in prison, "gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned?"1 Surely the damned will not look much different than this.


http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... onism.html

This is not hyperbole. This is the truth.


Wow. Ray, honestly, how can you rely on that unadulterated crap from DCP? Really, that article was most definitely not one of his better moments. It is very intriguing that he has to rely upon Mormonism in order to demonstrate the "wrongness" of RfM. Can he not rely on "secular" means to deconstruct and effectively criticize "secular anti-Mormonism"?

I am not trying to be some kind of "saviour" or "knight in shining armour", nor can I "stop" anything. What I am saying is that what Bond refers to as the "crap" has always been around. Dan Peterson is a public figure, and he has had criticism for a long time, but in recent times the viciousness of that criticism has reached a new tempo, as described above, not just against him, but the Church and Church leaders in general.


Where are you getting this, Ray? What is your evidence? Your own, private, personal barometer? Do you not notice that you are saying "the 'crap' has always been around" at the same time that you are saying "the criticism has reached a new tempo"? Does this not seem the slightest bit hypocritical to you?

Also: has it ever occurred to you that much of this criticism would dissipate if the Church changed some of its uglier policies?

My question, and long-time concern is - HOW far will this eventually go? Those who do not learn from the past will be condemned to repeat it.


Meaning, of course, that angry writings such as DCP's article, when connected to the "spiritual forces" of Mormonism, will eventually lead to a mass hunting down of ex- and anti-Mormons. Your own source requires religion as a factor, Ray.

You do not know nor understand what you are stirring by your bile, your innuendo, your anti-Mormonism, nor the possible long term consequences, in the name of "free speech". Think again why so many posters will NOT come here.


Because they are chicken. Because they crave the adulation they receive on MAD. Because they believe the dishonest characterizations churned out by juliann and her crew of harpies.

Because this is becoming like Martin Luther's vindictiveness and petty hatreds against the Jews. RFM is far worse. These are only two forums, but if they indicate general ex-Mormon sentiment in the wider community, which I think and hope they don't,


Again, Ray, you seem confused. On the one hand, you say the "vindictiveness" is ratcheting up, and yet on the other you say, "I think....they don't [indicate general ex-Mormon sentiment]." Which is it? Have you built yourself a nice little anti-Mormon straw man to take your aggressions out on?

then everyone should be concerned. This is not just a matter of "taking the crap", it is a phenomenon worth observing and watching, and checking. It's not my intention to kill free speech, but what I'm seeing is an abuse of free speech. How much influence will the Internet have? More than you imagine. It is claimed that the Internet has led to many leaving the Church, and if this is really the case, why should we imagine that the bile will not also influence people on a large scale? How many will come to hate Mormonism and Mormons? We can never predict at this stage. That is why I said have your part in this obsession, but I will have no part of it.


Then again, perhaps the Church will change its ways, and no one will have anything to complain about.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

One of fundamental parts of Mormonism is the concept of worthiness. In fact, this is such a defining characteristic that often mainstream Christians point to this as an unbridgeable divide. Mormonism does not teach that grace alone is sufficient to attaining the highest degree of glory, but worthiness in combination with grace is required. So the concept of worthiness is deeply embedded in Mormonism, in its teachings and practices. Active members are expected, from their teen years onward, to submit themselves to "worthiness interviews" with the priesthood leaders. Before being issued most callings, worthiness is ascertained through such an interview. Loss of worthiness can result of loss of calling as well as priesthood and even church membership. Simply being a smoker is enough to disqualify Mormons from leadership positions. Loss of worthiness is directly linked to the loss of the spirit, the mechanism by which LDS members are "enlightened" from on high.

Yet, when confronted with solid evidence that the high leaders of the LDS church incited members to commit mass murder, and possibly other murders as well, apologists insist that this, alone, does not disqualify the leaders from being able to lead the church in behalf of Jesus Christ.

It makes reason stare!

A missionary can be sent home in disgrace for even minor sexual sins, or infractions of the Word of Wisdom. Yet the prophets and apostles apparently are subjected to a far lower standard.

A bishop can be forced to resign and be excommunicated for far less. But prophets and apostles can incite mass murder and God will still consider them adequate for the job. God has no problem with his prophet teaching his followers that they can manifest TRUE love by killing sinners.

Just what kind of bizarre God is this? A hypocrite? An elitist? A trickster? A demon?

So God doesn't particularly care about the moral character of his leaders, nor does he care about how they "represent" his church. As I said earlier, not even the stupidest CEO would choose such an obviously flawed person as their representative. After all, the word "representative" means that this individual is standing in your stead. God doesn't mind if someone who incites murder stands in his stead, but he does mind if a missionary sneaks a smoke.

Ray won't judge these men, and he defies anyone to judge him, but he is very willing to judge internet exmormons.

Let's look at the internet in particular, and the behavior it tends to encourage. This is a well known phenomenon and is often commented upon. People tend to engage in far ruder behavior on the internet then they would ever engage in in real life. I believe this is due to the fact that, as Robert Wright noted, human beings are wired, in part, to behave according to social expectations in order to obtain a good reputation in the community. They are someone worthy of reciprocal altruism. When this social observation is muted, as it is on the internet due not only to anonymity but also to the fact that even those who use their real names are generally not interacting with people in their "real life" community. It is also due to the fact that there is no face-to-face interaction, but rather an impersonal screen. Is this behavior limited to exmormons? Only
the most naïve individual would imagine so.

Are Ray and DCP and his crowd of cheerleaders engaging in their own form of “presentism” when they studiously ignore the context of these comments? In other words, an internet board?

Let’s look at some current observations about internet interactions:

http://www.profy.com/2007/02/21/web20-politeweb/

I found a really insightful essay in the New York Times by Daniel Coleman. The article deals with online behavior and in particular "flaming" before thinking in online communication venues. After all, we have all been exposed to rude and antisocial behavior from other people since we first ventured here.

In fact, offensive messages seem to plague every dialogue we enter into, and often comments that are not meant to be offensive can easily be taken badly. The "flaming" phenomena actually has a technical name, it is known as the "online disinhibition effect."

According to the essay, in 2004 an article in the CyberPsychology & Behavior suggested that several psychological factors lead to online disinhibition: the anonymity of a Web pseudonym; invisibility to others; the time lag between sending an email message and getting feedback; the exaggerated send of self from being alone; and the lack of any online authority figure. Dr. John Sujler, psychologist at Rider University concludes that this effect can either be benign - as when a shy person opens up online, or toxic - when more aggressive people become uninhibited.

There is an emerging field called social neuroscience, which studies what goes in the brains and bodies between interacting people. This field offers clues into what exactly goes in to "flaming."

There appear to be some flaws in the inherent interface between the brain's social circuitry and the online world. In face-to-face interaction, the brain reads a continual cascade of emotional signs and social cues, instantaneously using them to guide our next move to effect good encounters. Most of this social guidance occurs in circuitry centered on the orbitofrontal cortex, or center for empathy. This center works to ensure that interactions are kept on track.

Research by Jennifer Beer, a psychologist at the University of California, showed that the face-to-face guidance system inhibits impulses for actions that would upset other people to throw interaction off. Neurological patients with a damaged orbitofrontal cortex lose their ability to modulate the amygdala, a source of unruly impulses like small children exhibit.
Socially artful responses are largely a function of neural chatter between the orbitofrontal cortex and emotional centers like the amygdale that generate impulsive behavior. The cortex needs social information - a change in voice or tone - to know how to select and channel impulses. In emails or chat rooms there are no channels for voice, facial expression or other cues from the person on the receiving end of textual communication. We do have cute emoticons to add punctuation and simulate emotion, but these rather lame icons lack the neural impact or an actual smile or frown. Essentially, the cortex has so little to go one in these types of communications that people are much too easily misread and misunderstood.


Yeah, that’s what I’ve been saying!!!

So what is happening? Is Ray right, and some sort of “evil spirit” is current infiltrating the entire planet? Are scores of mini-holocausts ready to unfold? Apparently Mormons will not be the sole targets, based on the rhetoric seen elsewhere on the internet.

To evaluate this evil spirit, let’s look at some of the changes that have taken place within the past decades:

1. Familial abuse has “come out of the closet” to openly be addressed and condemned. It is no longer socially accepted to beat one’s wife, with the exception of the most radical religious communities, nor is child molestation the hidden shame that children had to bear, by and large, by themselves.
2. Slavery is universally condemned. It took a while for some societies to get onboard, but the change is undeniable.
3. Human rights in general are being codified into more governmental systems, with some setbacks now and then.
4. While racial prejudice is not eradicated, it has become socially unacceptable. This is a dramatic change even in my own lifetime. Does anyone else remember the old candidates who used to practically brag about their own racism, and their intent to keep the races separated? Even the fundies in the US have gotten onboard. Jerry Falwell has distanced himself from his former racist teachings, for example.

These are just a couple of examples that immediately come to mind. If these changes are the influence of an “evil spirit”, then I hope that “evil spirit” has more and more influence.

Once again, let’s review Ray’s comments, in the context of his determination that even if BY and other church leaders have blood on their hands for inciting murder and mass murder, that alone does not disqualify them from being God’s representatives in leading the “one true church”.

Mr. Scratch is an outright Nazi, on par with Eichman, who sent thousands of Jews to their deaths.

Exmormons who call DCP a fattie, a barracuda, a liar, a dummy, and whatever else they call him, are the equivalent of Luther who sowed the seeds of anti-semitism.

God alone can judge Brigham Young and Ray A. But Ray is more than qualified to judge exmormons, even if it requires engaging in flagrant disregard of context and balance.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Mister Scratch wrote:Mormons have not been "driven out of the lands they settled" in over a hundred years. I doubt very much that they will be "driven out" of the Zion Corridor any time soon. Do you have a better analogy, or is this just more of the TBM persecution complex?


Scratch, in this post once again you demonstrate your poor comprehension of what I'm saying. Did I say Mormons would be driven out from anywhere? Do you understand what a historical analogy is? Have Jews been driven out from anywhere since 1947? Does anti-Jewish sentiment still exist? Does violence against Jews still occur? They are still threatened on all sides, and some crazy people like Saddam have said they wanted them nuked. Why do you think there are Jewish organisations created to fight anti-Semitism? You know, if angry exmos said in this country about Jews what they are saying about Mormons it wouldn't be long before they were hauled before the courts and anti-discrimination boards. But I understand that in America you have different constitutional laws. Anti-Muslim websites in this country have been shut down. I know the owner of one who was shut down. Why? I won't rely on your genius to work that out, Scratch. It breeds public hatred of minority groups.


Again, I think your analogy is awfully shaky. Where are the Mormon equivalents of the great Jewish authors? Or the great Jewish musicians? Face it: Mormonism crushes these sorts of impulses. As Eugene England said, "The first great Mormon author will be excommunicated from the Church."


So let me see. How long have the Jews been in existence? Since 1830? Got it. Mormons, by the way, do excel at science.


No, since your quote require that antis, exmos, and so forth cleave to "spiritual forces." The reason---as evidenced by your own quote---that anti-Semitism flourished had to do with its connection to religious belief. If you would like to demonstrate how RfM and its ilk dabble in some kind of spiritual mysticism that will eventually cause people to irrationally attack Mormons and Mormonism, then I'm all ears.


This is what I mean by your lack of comprehension. See my remarks to Bond, but I doubt you'll "get it".


Again, the problem with your comparison (in my opinion) is that your own sources view religion as being necessary for the mindless, lockstep behavior and thinking that led to the Nazi genocide. Ex-Mormonism is, by definition, a lack of religion.


See above. Also, Ex-Mormonism is not "by definition" a "lack of religion", but it shows your own narrow thinking and crass prejudices. Were the Tanners non-religious? Is Ed Decker non-religious? Are all the posters on RFM non-religious? Ex-Mormons come in many varieties, not your prejudiced way of seeing it, Scratch.

Right. And posters on *this* board are "routinely stereotyped" as "brazen liars," lovers of porn, Sons of Perdition, "apostates," haters, vulgarians, etc., etc., etc.


I see far more of this coming from here, and RFM. And you'd have to be blind not to see that.


Wow. Ray, honestly, how can you rely on that unadulterated crap from DCP? Really, that article was most definitely not one of his better moments. It is very intriguing that he has to rely upon Mormonism in order to demonstrate the "wrongness" of RfM. Can he not rely on "secular" means to deconstruct and effectively criticize "secular anti-Mormonism"?


If you can't see the wrongness of what he quoted as coming from RFM, then you wouldn't know the difference between a boy scout and a terrorist.


Where are you getting this, Ray? What is your evidence? Your own, private, personal barometer? Do you not notice that you are saying "the 'crap' has always been around" at the same time that you are saying "the criticism has reached a new tempo"? Does this not seem the slightest bit hypocritical to you?


This is what I mean by a severe lack of comprehension skill. A kindergarten child could see the differentiation.

Also: has it ever occurred to you that much of this criticism would dissipate if the Church changed some of its uglier policies?


Like what? Name me some of these "ugly policies". What could be uglier than the vitriol that comes from you? You and your vitriolic blog, and your constant yelling at the Church to "change!" Why do you want change so much? You still have not explained this to me. Is the Church a danger to the world? Are you a member of the Church? This is the great mystery. WHY does Scratch want The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to change so much??


Meaning, of course, that angry writings such as DCP's article, when connected to the "spiritual forces" of Mormonism, will eventually lead to a mass hunting down of ex- and anti-Mormons. Your own source requires religion as a factor, Ray.


Was Mao religious? Was Stalin? Are the Chinese running Tibet because of their religious beliefs? Do you think Saddam believed one word of the Qur'an? No, Scratch, you're just showing that as well as being an anti-Mormon you are also anti-religion.


Again, Ray, you seem confused. On the one hand, you say the "vindictiveness" is ratcheting up, and yet on the other you say, "I think....they don't [indicate general ex-Mormon sentiment]." Which is it? Have you built yourself a nice little anti-Mormon straw man to take your aggressions out on?


The vindictiveness is increasing on forums where exmos post. I do not know the minds of what the 50% or so of exmos and inactives in America think. From what beastie says, they are just as angry but don't express it. In fact, she says her sister shows more dislike of the Church than she does, but never expresses it publicly. I do not know, because in my part of the world exmos say little, on forums or in real life. They have a simple philosophy - Live and Let Live. Get on with your life.

Then again, perhaps the Church will change its ways, and no one will have anything to complain about.


I ask you again, what is your agenda? Are you a member of the Church? Why are you so anxious for change? WHAT do you want to change?
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:Are Ray and DCP and his crowd of cheerleaders engaging in their own form of “presentism” when they studiously ignore the context of these comments? In other words, an internet board?


Beastie, I'll reply to your lengthy post eventually. Unfortunately I'm back to work this afternoon and may not have much time over the next four days. However, I did have a good laugh at the quote above. I really don't know who my "cheerleaders" are. I have not corresponded with a single Mormon since this debate began. Nothing has been said on MAD either. If I do have "cheerleaders" I wish they would put up their hands and give me a clap. LOL.
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Sorry, Ray, I was referring to DCP's cheerleaders. He has quite a few, as I'm sure you would recognize.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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