? for Ray A

[_Ray A]

Ray,

The day Mormonism stops teaching its bigotry about apostates is the day you can claim exmormons attacked Mormons first.

Give me some concrete examples from current leaders and I will see if I can agree with you.

[_beastie]

Ray,

You have a very short memory.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=1426

[_Ray A]

You know I felt the same way...when I was on the MAD board.

You were once a balanced poster - now you're a Mormon-basher.

So in other words.....you don't know if you read the stuff. But you take someone else's word on it. Okay.

You still haven't answered how much you have read.

Yeah. I studied for the better part of one week. It's amazing how much you can pick up at Uncle Scratch's University of Mormon Criticism.

That's obvious to all.

PS: I'd also like to know who the "decent" Mormons on this board are who should abandon the board.

Most of them already have! I will not name names, I will let those people examine themselves. The board is overrun with mockery of Mormonism, and most of the LDS posters who were here have stopped posting. It is not a place for serious discussion, and when this thread has run its course and your questions are answered, I will see no point in hanging around either. So lest you think I'm ducking, I'll stay on this thread until it dies, unless it reaches a point where I'm repeating myself too much.

In case you didn't realise, I was the one who suggested the initial changes back on the old MDB, which led to this one, and the eventual concept from Shades and Keene about the different levels of forums. They realised that something had to be done. Now, I see only one option left, and that is to tighten moderation even more and stop the mocking threads. It's demeaning to most Mormons, and like most people they have tolerance levels too. There can be criticism without mockery, as occurs on MAD. But that may kill the concept of "free speech". Free speech can lead to anarchy if it involves open mockery. But I think this would be too much to ask, so I'm not unrealistic.

[_Bond...James Bond]

You know I felt the same way...when I was on the MAD board.

You were once a balanced poster - now you're a Mormon-basher.

I seem to remember being more balanced....these boards tend to wear down a person's patience....maybe it's been my shift from theist to agnostic....maybe I didn't want to get banned on MAD and after I was I stopped giving a damn about what people thought....I don't know. But all I can do is call it like I see it...and I think Mormonism is false.

So in other words.....you don't know if you read the stuff. But you take someone else's word on it. Okay.

You still haven't answered how much you have read.

How much have I read? Never enough. But I think my reading of the scriptures and my own ability to reason have allowed me to make informed decisions about Mormonism.

PS: I'd also like to know who the "decent" Mormons on this board are who should abandon the board.

Most of them already have! I will not name names, I will let those people examine themselves. The board is overrun with mockery of Mormonism, and most of the LDS posters who were here have stopped posting. It is not a place for serious discussion, and when this thread has run its course and your questions are answered, I will see no point in hanging around either. So lest you think I'm ducking, I'll stay on this thread until it dies, unless it reaches a point where I'm repeating myself too much.

In case you didn't realise, I was the one who suggested the initial changes back on the old MDB, which led to this one, and the eventual concept from Shades and Keene about the different levels of forums. They realised that something had to be done. Now, I see only one option left, and that is to tighten moderation even more and stop the mocking threads. It's demeaning to most Mormons, and like most people they have tolerance levels too. There can be criticism without mockery, as occurs on MAD. But that may kill the concept of "free speech". Free speech can lead to anarchy if it involves open mockery. But I think this would be too much to ask, so I'm not unrealistic.

No I didn't realize that. I stumbled onto this board right after this version came aboard so I don't know all these board histories. Maybe moderation should be tightened (a smidge...a tiny smidge) but what should be moderated? Language? posting tone? Comments about apologists?



Taking this thread in a completely different direction (based on some of your above comments):

Does all criticism have to be completely serious?

Can people have a laugh at the expense of their religious leaders?

[_Ray A]

Ray,

You have a very short memory.

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... php?t=1426

And I think all of the comments I made on that thread were appropriate. Yes, there is individual bigotry among some LDS, and there does seem to be "institutional bigotry" towards apostates in some of those statements, but it doesn't outrage me like it does you!

I have said before, and will repeat, I don't care what some TBMs may think. If I am "darkened in mind", so what? What would you like Mormons to do, say that apostasy is okay? That those who leave the Church and lose the Spirit are no different? Take up relativism? I read what Gaz says about this too, and it doesn't offend me. I know what he thinks. He thinks exactly what those quotes say. I'm not in a huff. I see too that most of those quotes are from 19th century leaders, and some going back to Harold B. Lee, and of course there was the famous one from Carlos Asay, but apparently in current manuals. I have gone back to Church sporadically ever since I left in 1987, and in real life all of my experiences have been positive. As I have said on boards before, I got the red carpet treatment. I have seen tears flow at my returns, even when only for short visits. Yes, this "evil apostate" was treated very normally. The bottom line, beastie, is that I have no ax to grind with the Church. I don't need to justify myself. So maybe we are just on very different wavelengths.

[_beastie]

Let’s experiment and make slight alterations in order to present the following as an attack not on Mormon apostates, but an entirely different group. To retain the sense, however, I’ll still use an “apostate” group, but change it to those who apostasize from the Jehovah Witness faith.

Apostasy is turning away from Jehovah and ultimately denying the faith.

What is that which turns people away from this Society? Very trifling affairs are generally the commencement of their divergence from the right path. If we follow a compass, the needle of which does not point correctly, a very slight deviation in the beginning will lead us, when we have traveled some distance, far to one side of the true point for which we are aiming.

If the Witnesses neglect to pray, and violate the day that is set apart for the worship of God, they will lose his Spirit. If a man shall suffer himself to be overcome with anger, and curse and swear, taking the name of the Deity in vain, he cannot retain the Holy Spirit. In short, if a man shall do anything which he knows to be wrong, and repenteth not, he cannot enjoy the Holy Spirit, but will walk in darkness and ultimately deny the faith.

It is most astonishing to every principle of intelligence that any man or woman will close their eyes upon eternal things after they have been made acquainted with them, and let the … things of this world, the lusts of the eye, and the lusts of the flesh, entangle their minds and draw them one hair’s breadth from the principles of life.

It was said here this morning that no person ever apostatized, without actual transgression. Omission of duty leads to commission.

If you knew that the JWs were teaching this to their members, over and over, (and they actually do teach something quite similar), would you admit that they had institutionalized bigotry towards those who leave their faith, and poisoning the minds of believers towards family members and friends who leave their faith, and, in fact, engaging in personal attacks on those who leave the faith?

And I think all of the comments I made on that thread were appropriate. Yes, there is individual bigotry among some LDS, and there does seem to be "institutional bigotry" towards apostates in some of those statements, but it doesn't outrage me like it does you!

I have said before, and will repeat, I don't care what some TBMs may think. If I am "darkened in mind", so what? What would you like Mormons to do, say that apostasy is okay? That those who leave the Church and lose the Spirit are no different? Take up relativism? I read what Gaz says about this too, and it doesn't offend me. I know what he thinks. He thinks exactly what those quotes say. I'm not in a huff. I see too that most of those quotes are from 19th century leaders, and some going back to Harold B. Lee, and of course there was the famous one from Carlos Asay, but apparently in current manuals. I have gone back to Church sporadically ever since I left in 1987, and in real life all of my experiences have been positive. As I have said on boards before, I got the red carpet treatment. I have seen tears flow at my returns, even when only for short visits. Yes, this "evil apostate" was treated very normally. The bottom line, beastie, is that I have no ax to grind with the Church. I don't need to justify myself. So maybe we are just on very different wavelengths.

It doesn't "outrage" me, although I think it's outrageous. At one point it did outrage me. Right now I just point to it in response to your insistence that exmormons "start it".

Your primary point now seems to be to admit that there is some level of institutionalized bigotry against apostates in the LDS church, but it shouldn't bother me.

So why do you let the exmormon statements bother YOU? Do you have some need to justify yourself to exmormons?

[_beastie]

I'll also repeat the point I made on that thread - the reason exmormons point to all the problems in Mormonism is because they DO feel like they have to justify themselves. They want to defend themselves against this nonsense that has been taught over Mormon pulpits since it began - there is no legitimate reason to lose faith, there's something wrong with YOU if you lose faith. You're lazy, you're proud, you're sinful, etc.

So the exmormon says, no I'm not - look, Joseph Smith married other men's wives!! Look, the Book of Abraham doesn't match the papyrus at all!! Look, BY taught blood atonement!! These are legitimate reasons to lose faith!!

Do you get it yet?

[_Ray A]

So why do you let the exmormon statements bother YOU? Do you have some need to justify yourself to exmormons?

I'm afraid my playtime is over, and I return to work in two hours, and have spent too much time on boards during these days off. But I'll answer this question before I go, and get to the others, including Bond's, when I have more time.

Easy, because the ex-Mormon "statements" I am talking about are not "statements", and they are not "institutional statements", they come from forums and blogs and other commentary and are injected with anger. Example from Sam's blog (not picking on Sam here, but his blog is one I have access to now):

My most famous post regarding Bednar, which ranks very high on Google searches, called him "The Kiss ASS Of The Century", which was even found to be too offensive for the angry Mormon Curtain and a post that was subsequently removed; which led me to ask for all of my posts to be removed since there is far worse all over the place over there and it was hypocritical and just a personal dislike and disdain for me, which I wasn't aware even existed.

I was just simply speaking the truth as I always do, with lots of passion and facts, which some just can't handle. Apparently my blog and Dr. Shades Mormon Discussion board, are about the only places I've found on the entire Internet, where I won't be censored or have my comments deleted. At least I have somewhere to freely express myself.

http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/

Which is more offensive? Do you ever hear LDS leaders referring to "kiss ass exmos"? Would you really like me to reverse the roles and place exmo statements in Church leaders' mouths and hear it? Maybe when I have more time, but it will probably be placed in Outer Darkness. And as Sam noted, he is not the only one doing this.

[_Runtu]

Which is more offensive? Do you ever hear LDS leaders referring to "kiss ass exmos"? Would you really like me to reverse the roles and place exmo statements in Church leaders' mouths and hear it? Maybe when I have more time, but it will probably be placed in Outer Darkness. And as Sam noted, he is not the only one doing this.

Ray, if I had to choose between being called a "kiss ass" and what I've been called by Mormons on MADB and elsewhere, I'd prefer to be called a kiss ass any day. I've been told I couldn't handle keeping the commandments, was lazy in my spiritual development, was looking for an excuse to leave, let Satan into my heart, was too easily offended, have spiritually destroyed my family, have deceived my wife (and they threatened to end my marriage, I might I add), am deluded/deceived/evil/nasty, and so on, ad nauseam.

Do you really think that calling Bednar a "kiss ass" is more offensive than that?

Namecalling is childish and stupid. I agree that there's far too much anger out there, but, dammit, it's on both sides, not just the exmo side. Calling us Nazis isn't exactly going to help improve the tone, is it? Of course, trying to improve the tone on MADB just gets you banned.

[_beastie]

Institutionalized bigotry always Trump's random, childish statements, Ray, because it has the force of authority - particularly if that authority is coming from GOD.