In light of the massacre in Virginia....

Post by **_Dr. Shades** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:54 am

Bond...James Bond wrote:Yeah...CNN, ABC, CBS, FOX? Do these mean anything to you Shades? Turn on the tube...give in to cable.

I've heard of them, but I pretty much never watch T.V.

Post by **_harmony** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:19 am

beastie wrote:This has been a hard day for everyone, but particularly for Virginians like me. Many of my kids' friends, my friends' children, go to Va Tech. My parents live even close to Va Tech than I do, and even more from their community go there. In my hometown, the latest word is none our children were victims, but our hearts are breaking for our neighbors. One of my closest friend's daughter was supposed to be in the building that was targeted, but was held up by a professor. Just a quirk of fate kept her alive today. It makes you put things in perspective, overall.

I'm wondering if any former fringers here remember Lane. He is a librarian at Va Tech. I'm expecting he's probably all right, since he wouldn't likely have been in the targeted buildings.

Fred? Fred Newman? He's okay, isn't he?

Post by **_beastie** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:31 am

Harm,

I don't know, I haven't heard from Fred/Lane in ages. I'm assuming he's ok since the targeted classroom was an engineering class, and he's the librarian there who would have no reason to be in an engineering class, but I don't know for sure.

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:09 pm

It's unreal.

I'm just waiting for some evangelist to come along and claim god was pissed off at VT for some reason. He should be along soon.

Post by **_Fortigurn** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:11 pm

Some Schmo wrote:It's unreal.

I'm just waiting for some evangelist to come along and claim god was pissed off at VT for some reason. He should be along soon.

It's clear that neither God or the devil are required for this. The sociological environment in North American is doing the job quite nicely.

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:55 pm

Fortigurn wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:It's unreal.

I'm just waiting for some evangelist to come along and claim god was pissed off at VT for some reason. He should be along soon.

It's clear that neither God or the devil are required for this. The sociological environment in North American is doing the job quite nicely.

On this point, we do agree.

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:35 pm

Update:

Here's the shooter

Here are some victim profiles

Post by **_beastie** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:24 pm

I have to admit I am taking this hard. I'm reacting to this the same way I reacted to 9/11. I can hardly listen to any of the news reports about it. I do wonder if the rest of the country is reeling over this the way we are. Everything about it is so painful.

Post by **_Fortigurn** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:54 pm

What is it, do you think, in a society which produces these events? Why do you think it is that certain societies experience them more than others? Could it be that there might be a few small problems with the way our modern societies are set up? There's only so many times you can trot out the 'lone nut' theory before it becomes apparent that there's a social mechanism which is actually producing these 'lone nuts'. They're not exactly 'lone' anymore, are they?

Beastie, please pardon me for saying that a society which produces people like this is not a society to which I look for moral guidance.

Post by **_beastie** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:23 am

First, Fort, anyone who looks to the US for "moral guidance" is sadly misguided and ignorant of history. I love my country, but I'm no fool.

However, given religion's moral history, I wouldn't view religion as a source of moral guidance, either. Both the US and religion tend to talk in self-righteous terms, while often engaging in behavior that seems quite malicious to outsiders.

Second, on the why - you know my stance on human evolution. I believe human beings evolved in a small tribal setting. We knew everyone in our tribe. We depended on one another. The practice of reciprocal altruism in such a small setting, where everyone was known, helped ensure a certain degree of mutually beneficial behavior.

Today, we live in an alien world that we are still may not be adapted to, in terms of our instinctual behavior. VTech, like many other major universities, is so large that it's a little city on its own. Students can become faceless. Human beings desperately need social interaction. We evolved with these instincts, because they helped our ancestors survive and reproduce with a higher degree of success. In addition, larger societies allow for anonymous bad behavior. You're unknown to many, so reciprocal altruism loses its force. You're not being observed by those who know you and will remember your behavior for future interaction. We see the same phenomenon on the internet, and it's been reported on ad nauseum as the reason large cities are ruder than small towns. Anonymity breeds bad behavior.

So I think the result of this is that some people engage more freely in bad behavior, like bullying or other belittling behaviors. If a person does not socialize easily, is a "loner", and then is subjected to repeated bad behavior by anonymous others, that person is operating under conditions that feel seriously threatening to survival and reproductive success, and may lash out.