Bokovoy on the warpath again

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_Enuma Elish
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Post by _Enuma Elish »

Fortigurn,

What do you mean 'in reality'? You've cited exactly the same article and reference that I did, except that you didn't give the month name, and you didn't cite accurately the pages I quoted (I only quoted pages 62, 66 and 74).


I wanted to specify that this article was written by Michael Heiser and in reality entitled, “Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God.” Also, in reality, Hesier’s work does not support your claims.

I'm familiar with Heiser's work. I quoted him specifically because he's on one radical extreme of the debate, but even he won't go as far as Mormons do on this issue. As to whether or not he believes that Israel was monotheistic, it's putting words into his mouth to say he doesn't:


True enough. Heiser does not agree with Mormonism. He is an Evangelical Bible scholar (certainly one of the best in my humble opinion). And yes, Heiser doesn’t go far enough in his views, which is why I have a forty some odd page critique coming out concerning Heiser’s recent arguments regarding the LDS use of Psalm 82 and John 10.

As to whether or not Heiser believes that “monotheism” is an appropriate term to apply to biblical theology, I believe Heiser has made his views quite clear.

I can email you each article in its entirety if you like.


Thank you. That would be very nice. Please send a PM.

They haven't usurped it at all. They're simply using it as it's been used since at least the LXX (treating the LXX as an interpretative text, and leaving the original Hebrew texts aside for the sake of the argument).


I provided a post that included a somewhat brief history of the way that this term has appeared in scholarly usage beginning with H. Wheeler Robinson, who concerning the biblical council of the gods declared, “One of the chief perils in the exegesis of ancient writings is that we should take figuratively that which in origin was meant quite realistically.” H. Wheeler Robinson, “The Council of Yahweh,” The Journal of Theological Studies (1944): 151.

No, I'm afraid this doesn't prove your case.


Well, then apparently I have no idea what ever will. As I said from the beginning, the Hebrew word ben can denote “a member, fellow of a group, class guild” (The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament; Study Edition, vol. 1, 138). This is why HALOT refers to the “son of the prophet” as “a member of the band of prophets” and the “son of the wise men” as “one of the wise men” (Ibid.).

This is true not only for Hebrew, but for the Semitic languages as a whole. It explains not only why many translators simply render the biblical phrase “sons of God” as “gods," but it also explains why law 188 from the Babylonian Laws of Hammurabi states summa mar ummanim “if the son of a craftsman,” which Martha T. Roth translates, “If a craftsman” (Law Collections From Mesopotamia and Asia Minor, 119). More importantly, the grammatical rule also explains why the Ugaritic tablet KTU 1.10:I.4 features the biblical cognate bn il “sons of God” which Simon Parker translates as “the gods” (Ugaritic Narrative Poetry, 182).

Actually I quoted the abridged BDB and the full BDB, and both are from the 1956 revised edition, which was written long after a published Ugarit corpus existed (the Schaeffer discoveries of 1928).


Yes. The BDB has been reprinted many times. All of these reprints, however, still reflect the 1906 version. This is why you will not find any Ugaritic cognates listed with the Hebrew entries and you must be very careful in accepting any of the information they provide concerning “Assyrian,” i.e., Akkadian cognates.

Note that the BDB entry for “ben” provides an unvocalized Phoenician cognate, an Arabic cognate, an Assyrian cognate, and an Aramaic cognate, but no Ugaritic.

I don’t mean to be too disparaging, the Brown Driver and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon is one of my all time favorite books, however, given its date, you simply cannot rely upon the BDB as an up to date resource. Espeically for issues concerning the word elohim and the expression "sons of God."

I also quoted the Concise HALOT, which is dated to 1970, and quotes the relevant Ugarit literature throughout.


Good! I don’t see a HALOT reference in your post, but HALOT is much more reliable than the BDB.

I also quoted TWOT, which was published in 1980 and quotes extensively from the Ugarit literature.


Yes. I know. Again, most scholars (myself included) do not view The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament as a standard academic reference tool, despite its date. Though quite expensive, the multi-volume Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament I cited is far superior.

The reason why I chose to include Gesenius was simply to show that the definition he gave is still current.


Again, I have a copy of Gesenius that assumes a prominent place on my shelf, but at 1909, the information is not current. I could provide several examples off the top of my head where the grammatical rules outlined in Gesenius have been proven incorrect.

Now, I'm interested in your thoughts on how a 6th century BC post-exilic Jew can write with such detailed accuracy concerning the religion of a society which ended 500 years before he lived. Do give me your thoughts on how the post-exilic authors became so familiar with the Ugarit pantheon, despite never having been contemporaries of the Ugarit society.


I certainly don’t believe that the post-exilic authors were entirely well-stepped in the details concerning Ugaritic mythology. Though the tablets from Ugarit reflect an early Canaanite perspective, it is a fact that many of the latest texts preserved in the Hebrew Bible still reflect Canaanite imagery; see Michael Fishbane, Biblical Myth and Rabbinic Mythmaking (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003).

The conflict between Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Son of Man depicted in the book of Daniel may reflect the Baal Cycle in which the younger god Baal empowered by the older god El defeats Yam (The Sea); see J.J. Collins, “Stirring up the Sea: The Religio-Historical Background of Daniel 7,” The Book of Daniel in the Light of New Findings; A.S. van der Woude, ed. (Levuven 1993): 121-126.

As another example of Canaanite influence on late biblical texts, Simon Parker has argued that the depiction of El’s residence at Ugarit “at the springs of the Rivers among the streams of the Deeps” is “exploited in Ezekiel’s account of the presumptuousness of the king of Tyre, who, Ezekiel says, has claimed, ‘I am God (El), I sit in the seat of God in the midst of the seas’ (Ezek 28:2).” Simon B. Parker, “Ugaritic Literature and the Bible,” Near Eastern Archaeology 63:4 (2000): 231.

Indeed, as André Caquot has suggested, imagery associated with early Canaanite mythology may even appear directly reflected within the New Testament:

“No one contests today the fact that knowledge of Ugarit is indispensable for exegetes of the Old Testament. But those of the New Testament should not neglect it either for it attests to details that were long retained by popular memory. The seven-headed best of the Apocalypse of John (12:3) does not come from the visions of Daniel, and Psalm 74 does not mention the number of Leviathan’s multiple heads. On the other hand, the Ugaritic ancestor of this dragon, reportedly defeated by Baal, is certainly the beast with seven heads. We have perhaps not considered sufficiently the fact that in Matthew 6:30-52, Mark 14:13-33 and John 6:1-20, the story of the multiplication of the loaves is immediately followed by the scene describing Jesus walking on the waters as if deliberately recalling two events in the cycle of Baal wherein Baal gives men their nourishment and vanquishes the sea” André Caquot, “At the Origins of the Bible,” Near Eastern Archeology 63:4 (2000): 227.

If we can trace this type of imagery to New Testament and Rabbinic writings, then clearly the earliest texts from the Hebrew Bible should be interpreted with a sensitivity directed towards these "Canaanite" traditions.
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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

I note that some of the folks on MAD are high-fiving David on his smackdown of Fort and dartagnan. I thought cheerleading was a bannable offense. ;-)
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_Enuma Elish
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Post by _Enuma Elish »

Runtu wrote:I note that some of the folks on MAD are high-fiving David on his smackdown of Fort and dartagnan. I thought cheerleading was a bannable offense. ;-)


I didn't see any of that. And given my sincere apology, I don't have any desire to "smakdown" Fort or Kevin. I hope that we can disagree without being disagreeable. Someone once said that contention is of the devil.
_Enuma Elish
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Post by _Enuma Elish »

aussieguy55 wrote:I read Heiser's paper and his response to you. I don't have the knowledge to engage in debate. I did some hebrew years ago with F I Anderson at the University of Queensland. He was a brillant man and Christian. He wrote a book on the waw consecutive. I imagine you would be aware of it.


I believe so. Are you referring to the book The Sentence in Biblical Hebrew?
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Enuma Elish wrote:
Runtu wrote:I note that some of the folks on MAD are high-fiving David on his smackdown of Fort and dartagnan. I thought cheerleading was a bannable offense. ;-)


I didn't see any of that. And given my sincere apology, I don't have any desire to "smakdown" Fort or Kevin. I hope that we can disagree without being disagreeable. Someone once said that contention is of the devil.


I have appreciated your tone and demeanor, David. I just saw a rather snotty post from structurecop yesterday on your thread regarding this discussion.
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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Runtu wrote:I note that some of the folks on MAD are high-fiving David on his smackdown of Fort and dartagnan. I thought cheerleading was a bannable offense. ;-)


If he had actually said anything which constituted a 'smackdown', that might be appropriate. But as it happens, they're probably only reading his posts not ours, and we all know that the people there are going to see anything he writes as a 'smackdown', regardless of its quality and heedless of whether or not it addresses the arguments at hand.
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_Fortigurn
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Post by _Fortigurn »

Back to Genesis 6:

* We still have no evidence that 'sons of God' means 'god' to the Hebrew (standard lexical sources say otherwise)

* In pagan literature gods may die, but in Hebrew literature immortality is a defining feature of a god (otherwise reading 'gods' in Psalm 82 makes no sense)

Back to 1 Kings 22.

* Previously you said the 'crisis' was Israel's apostasy, now it's whether or not to attack Ramoth Gilead (changing explanations is a symptom of ad hoc apologetics), but there's still no explanation of why this constitutes a 'crisis', no explanation of why it is not presented as a 'crisis' in the text, and a complete avoidance of the fact that as far as God is concerned there is no crisis - the king of Israel is going to attack Ramoth Gilead, and there are no two ways about it

* You still insist that th 'lying spirit' is a 'saviour', despite the fact that the text does not present him as a saviour, and you give no explanation of how destroying the armies of Israel and Judah constitutes the work of a saviour

* There is no 'discussion' of different solutions to the 'crisis', there is a single decision made by God, who explains what He has determined should happen (the only 'discussion' which takes place is among the spirits as to which of them will volunteer, and God asking the spirit 'How will you do this?' does not constitute a 'discussion' of solutions to the 'crisis' - God has already decreed the solution)

* As I said previously, we have no 'gods' here, only the heavenly host, and 'spirits' - there were perfectly good words which could have been used for gods, but they are not used here

Back to Isaiah :

* You've tried again to claim that Isaiah 'becomes a god', but the text says no such thing - on the contrary, the annointing of his mouth is a ceremonial moral purification, not a deification

* In the pagan literature mouth washing may have enabled a man to stand in the divine assembly, but Isaiah is already in the divine assembly (he didn't need mouth washing to get him there), and there is no mouth washing here in any case

* There are no gods in Isaiah 6 (no sons of gods, no sons of god, no elohim), and yet the throne room is clearly full of persons, who are non-gods

* If the throne room in Isaiah 6 was full of gods, what's the point of sending a man?

You claimed that the 'host of heaven' in the Bible are gods, and yet as I pointed out the 'host of heaven' in the Bible are identified with the sun, moon and stars, created by God. You then said 'Of course the Bible refers to the astral figures as gods of the Divine Council, I.e. “the host of heaven.”'', which is again begging the question. On the contrary, it doesn't present the 'astral figures' as 'gods of the Divine Council', the Bible describes the 'host of heaven' as the sun, moon and stars. That's the opposite of what you're claiming.

I read 'Kevin L. Barney, “Joseph Smith’s Emendation of Hebrew Genesis 1:1,” Dialogue 30/4 (Winter 1997): 103-35', and it was predictably poor:

* He acknowledges that Smith's 'emendation' of Genesis 1:1 is a complete mess and utterly wrong (he even uses the word 'mangled')

* He describes various attempts by LDS apologists to try and deal with the issue (and of course, they don't all agree)

* He resorts to the predictable LDS apologetic tactic of claiming that the record is wrong, and that Smith has been misrepresented (despite the fact that there are multiple records which provide a well corroborated account)

* On this basis he claims the right to depart freely from all the records, and explain how Smith's argument has not been accurately recorded

* Realising however that he cannot throw out all of the accounts, and that there remain insurmountable difficulties in the text which remains, he resorts to the tactic of emending the records even further, purporting to know what Smith's argument really was, explaining that Smith didn't present it in its complete form, or else didn't present it with sufficient clarity, and then recreating not only what he claims Smith's argument was, but recreating even the words he believes Smith to have used (exactly wat his source for this information is, he does not tell)

In short he dismisses the clear record found in multiple accounts, and rewrites both Smith's arguments and words almost wholesale, with no warrant whatsoever. This isn't even emendation, it's just making things up as you go along, in order to rewrite uncomfortable history.

The fact is that Smith mangled Genesis 1:1, and on this basis launched the doctrine of 'multiple gods'.
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_Benjamin McGuire
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More on the Divine Council

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Fortigurn - you noted this:

"The fact is that Smith mangled Genesis 1:1, and on this basis launched the doctrine of 'multiple gods'."

How should Genesis 1:1 read?

Ben
_Benjamin McGuire
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Re: Sons of God

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Fortigurn wrote:
Back to Genesis 6:

* We still have no evidence that 'sons of God' means 'god' to the Hebrew (standard lexical sources say otherwise)

* In pagan literature gods may die, but in Hebrew literature immortality is a defining feature of a god (otherwise reading 'gods' in Psalm 82 makes no sense)
I don't buy either of these points. For one, I think it that it represents a perspective that is limited in terms of who you are talking about and when you are talking about them. Israelite religion was certainly not homogenous. And there were Israelites (quite a number of them we are lead to believe) who were Ba'al worshipers, and we all know (right) that Ba'al not only killed other gods, but was himself killed and resurrected. And Ba'al (much like YHWH) was considered one of the sons of El. Given this, and the known instances (like Deuteronomy 32) where the text was manipulated to remove such references, it seems quite likely that there was a Hebrew tradition in which "sons of God" meant "god" to the Hebrews, even if this was not theologically consistent with post-exilic YHWHism. Nor am I convinced that the to "die like a man/Adam" of Psalm 82 suggests that they could not die to begin with. It merely shows that they could not be men to begin with. Further, the divinties in Psalm 82 were themselves rulers and judges - and equal in that sense with whichever of the Elohim was being highlighted from among them (that's one of the interesting features of Psalm 82 - it could be sung just as theologically correctly by a Ba'alist as by a YHWHist - Elohim stands in the assembly of El. He judges among the Elohim.) There is nothing within the context of Psalm 82 to suggest anything other than the seventy sons of El who each ruled one of the nations of the earth. The sweeping eschatalogical moment when the Elohim (being worshipped) stands up to inherit and thus rule all the nations becomes a major Christian tradition, including the darkness, the earth quaking, the stars falling from heaven, and so on (including the resulting comparison of Jesus as the elohim, the son of the most high, who would come to rule all the nations).
_Fortigurn
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Re: More on the Divine Council

Post by _Fortigurn »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Fortigurn - you noted this:

"The fact is that Smith mangled Genesis 1:1, and on this basis launched the doctrine of 'multiple gods'."

How should Genesis 1:1 read?


The way it usually reads in English translations, 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'. If you read that attempt to rescue Smith from his own 'translation' of Genesis 1:1, you'll find that even diehard Mormon apologists acknowledge that it doesn't read as Smith 'translated' it (or 'appeared to' translate it).
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