Egyptologists and the Joseph Smith Papyri

[_Gazelam]

2) Facsimile 2 alleges to show the "system of astronomy" by which the grand key-words of the priesthood are revealed. The Apocalypse of Abraham has Abraham presciently watching human history unfold (in two parts: Jews and Gentiles) on a sort of miraculous movie screen. The two are not equivalent. Contra Michael Rhodes' assertion, there's nothing there that is suggestive of the hypocephalus or of Joseph Smith's system of astronomy. Rhodes claims, for example, that in the Apocalypse "There is even a description of what are clearly the four figures labeled number 6 in the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus (Apocalypse of Abraham 18)." Whether this is deliberate deception or just wishful thinking I don't know for sure, but I do find it hard to believe that a professional Egyptologist could in good faith conclude that the cherubim around God's throne are "clearly the four figures labeled number 6 in the Joseph Smith Hypocephalus." If it isn't a deliberate deception, then it's confirmation bias at its best!

The connection between the two is found in Abraham 3:18 in the words as also

The preceeding verses speak of the numerous creations of God. Apocrypha goes into more detail:

A passage in the Apocalypse of Abraham reads like a modern description of the seething, ever-changing elements within a star. Abraham was shown the stars. An angel comes and takes him on a journey, during which Abraham goes into a trance (fig. 49). His spirit leaves his body, for when he comes back, it enters his body again and he has to be raised onto his feet. His spirit leaves his body, and the angel takes him to watch a star in the process of transformation. What an effect it has on him! He says he sees an indescribably mighty light, and within the light a vast fire in which there is a host of tremendous forms, which are always changing and exchanging with each other, constantly changing their shape as they move and consume each other and alter themselves.35 First, the hydrogen goes into a helium cycle, then to the next cycle, the main phase within a star. According to Abraham, it's quite a thing to see the stars always altering themselves. He frankly does not know what is going on. "I've never seen anything like this," he says. But of course he's not supposed to have, so he asks the angel, "Why have you brought me here? I've become weak, I can't see a thing, and I think I'm out of my mind."36 The angel tells him to stick close to him and not be afraid. But later they are both wrapped in something like flame, and the noise is as the voice of many rushing waters.37 This was long before the time of Christ and the day of Pentecost—and we hear much of it in the Kirtland Temple.)38 Then even the angel takes precautions. Abraham wants to fall on his face, but he cannot, "because there was no earth or ground anywhere to fall on."39 Abraham is awfully glad to get back into his body again and feel solid earth under his feet. What a terrifying experience—to see this transmutation of elements within the fire within the body of a star, constantly changing from one element to the next. Very impressive!

In this journey it is expressed that there is order and government in all of this, beginning with the world upon which the Father dwells and extending outward toward all creation.

The lesson in astronomy, with Abraham expressing life upon other worlds and the breadth of the plan of salvation, serves as a dual lesson in that it expresses the width and breadth of the priesthood and Gods order in all things.

The key words as also bring all of this back to the creation of the human spirit. This expresses variance and different degrees of glory, just as there is varience and different degrees of glory in the human spirits that are organized. Some are capable of supporting life and some are not. The chapter ends with the plan of salvation expressed to those spirits organized under the direction of Christ and their being tested to see if they are worthy to progress in the priesthood.

This is what was taught to the court of Pharaoh by Abraham. Pharaoh desiring priesthood but being unable to bear it since he was a decendent of Ham.

All three facimiles show this drama in the court of Pharaoh being played out.

Gaz

[_Gazelam]

Quote:
Whether Joseph translated what else we have in the Doctrine in covenants directly from other papyri or from revelation inspired by the facimiles I do not know. Witnesses state it was from other papyri.


4) Please explain what you are talking about. I am not aware of a translation from the papyri recorded in the D&C.

It was late when I typed that, and apparently evidence shows I was quite groggy. I usually start my day at 3 A.M.

I think what I was trying to get across is that the facimilies bear out what is in the Book of Abraham. The rest of what is in the Book of Abraham is either from revelation given while translating, or a direct translation from papyri.

[_CaliforniaKid]

The list I have (and no I have not read them) include:
Adolf Jellineks : Bet ha-Midrasch refrenced here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Jellinek

Bernard Beer's Leben Abraham's

An illuminated page from the Leipzig Mahzor, Southern Germany ca. 1320, showing Terah delivering Abraham to Nimrod. In a continuous narrative Abraham is shown cast into the fire but delivered by the hand of the Lord.

So you are asserting, on the basis of medieval texts you haven't read, that Pharaoh was going to sacrifice Abraham and that this is an "ancient" tradition. Is that correct?

The story originated with Pseudo-Philo sometime after 70 AD. In its original form, it had Abraham refusing to participate in the construction of the tower of Babel when instructed to do so by one Prince Jectan of Chaldea. Jectan proceeds to throw him in the fire. Abraham emerges unharmed, but the fire consumes Jectan and all his men who were standing all about (a total of 83,500 people). You can read it here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bap/bap22.htm

The legend is clearly based on Daniel's tale of the fiery furnace, and in fact the phrase "fiery furnace" appears in it. Pseudo-Philo's story was borrowed and transmitted by the Talmud and various medieval Muslim, Christian, and Jewish legends, where it was expanded and/or modified in a variety of ways. Some versions have Abraham being thrown into the fire by Nimrod. I haven't the slightest where you get the idea that Nimrod was the Pharaoh, except perhaps from Kerry Shirts. Where he gets that idea is even more of a mystery. Nimrod is generally considered a Chaldean hunter.

So your argument expects us to make the following leaps of logic:

1) This story, apparently unknown to pre-1st c. texts and obviously based on Daniel's fiery furnace, is based on true events experienced by Abraham.
2) The Talmudic and medieval permutations of this story, in which Nimrod does the sacrificing, are more accurate than its earliest form in Pseudo-Philo.
3) Nimrod was the Pharaoh, an assertion that you haven't documented at all.
4) Contrary to the obvious structure of the story, the throwing of Abraham into the fiery furnace was meant as some kind of a ritual "sacrifice."
5) This is somehow all evidence that the Book of Abraham is scripture.

I don't buy it, Gaz. Sorry.

On to Facsimile 2:

The connection between the two is found in Abraham 3:18 in the words as also

In Abraham 3:18, the difference in glory between stars is used to illustrate the point that intelligences also differ in glory. In the Apocalypse, however, the stars are noted because their number is like the number of Abraham's descendants:

"Here I am !" And he said, :Look from on high at the stars which are beneath you and count them for me and tell me their number!" And I said, "When can I? For I am a man." And he said to me, "As the number of the stars and their power so shall I place for your seed the nations and men, set apart for me in my lot with Azazel."

This, of course, is not more information than we find in Genesis.

As for the paragraph you pasted from God-knows-where that claimed that "A passage in the Apocalypse of Abraham reads like a modern description of the seething, ever-changing elements within a star," all I can say is that that's totally absurd. I don't even know where they're getting that. It's certainly not in the Apocalypse of Abraham. Read it for yourself:

http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepig ... raham.html

In this journey it is expressed that there is order and government in all of this, beginning with the world upon which the Father dwells and extending outward toward all creation.

The lesson in astronomy, with Abraham expressing life upon other worlds and the breadth of the plan of salvation, serves as a dual lesson in that it expresses the width and breadth of the priesthood and Gods order in all things.

The key words as also bring all of this back to the creation of the human spirit. This expresses variance and different degrees of glory, just as there is varience and different degrees of glory in the human spirits that are organized. Some are capable of supporting life and some are not. The chapter ends with the plan of salvation expressed to those spirits organized under the direction of Christ and their being tested to see if they are worthy to progress in the priesthood.

This is what was taught to the court of Pharaoh by Abraham. Pharaoh desiring priesthood but being unable to bear it since he was a decendent of Ham.

I hope the above was all referring to the Book of Abraham, because none of it is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham.

-CK

[_Gazelam]

Notes for the Nibley quote I posted in reference to facimile 2

35. Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1; 17:1, in OTP 1:696–97.

36. Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1–4, in ibid., 1:696.

37. Apocalypse of Abraham 16:3–4; 17:1, in ibid.

38. HC 2:428.

39. Apocalypse of Abraham 17:2–3, in OTP 1:696.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Presumably this is what Nibley was referring to:

we ascended upon many winds to the heavens which were above the firmament. And I saw in the air on the heights to which we ascended, a strong light impossible to describe, and within the light a fiercely burning fire of people, many people, of male appearance, all constantly changing in aspect and form, running and being transformed, and worshipping and crying with a sound of words that I could not recognise.

And I said to the angel, "Why have you now brought me up here, because my eyes cannot now see distinctly, and I am growing weak, and my spirit is departing from me?" And he said to me, "Remain close by me and do not fear, for the One whom you cannot see is now coming towards us with a great voice of holiness, even the Eternal One who loves you. But you yourself cannot see Him. But you must not allow your spirit to grow faint on account of the choirs of those who cry out, for I am with you to strengthen you."

And while he was thus speaking fire came all about us, and there was a voice within the fire like the sound of many waters, like the sound of the sea in violent motion. And I desired to fall down there and worship, and I saw that the angel who was with me bowed his head and worshipped, but the surface of the high place where I seemed to be standing changed its inclination constantly, rolling as the great waves on the surface of the sea.

...

And while I was still reciting the song, the mouth of the fire which was on the surface rose up on high. And I heard a voice like the roaring of the sea, nor did it cease on account of the rich abundance of the fire. And as the fire raised itself up, ascending into the heights, I saw under the fire a throne of fire, and round about it the watchfulness of many eyes, even the all-seeing ones reciting their song, and under the throne four fiery Living Ones singing, and their appearance was one, and each one had four faces. And such was the appearance of their countenance, that each one had the face of a lion, a man, an ox and an eagle, and because of their four heads upon their bodies, they had sixteen faces, and each one had three pairs of wings, from their shoulders, from their sides, and from their loins. And with the wings from the shoulders they covered their faces, and with the wings from their loins they covered their feet, while the two middle wings were spread out for flying straight forward.

...

And as I stood alone and looked, I saw behind the Living Ones a chariot with fiery wheels, each wheel full of eyes round about, and over the wheels was the throne which I had seen, and which was covered with fire, and the fire encircled it round about, and lo! an indescribable fire contained a mighty fiery host, and I heard its holy voice like the voice of a man.

...

And a voice came to me out of the midst of the fire, saying, "Abraham! Abraham!" and I answered saying "Here am I!" And he said, "Consider the expanses which are under the firmament on which you are now placed and see how on no single expanse is there any other than the One whom you have sought, even the One who loves you!"

...

And I looked downwards from the mountain on which I stood to the sixth firmament, and there I saw a multitude of angels of pure spirit, without bodies, whose duty was to carry out the commands of the fiery angels who were upon the seventh firmament, as I was standing suspended over them.

Apparently Nibley thinks that the 7th firmament (also called a "mountain") upon which Abraham was standing was the surface of the sun, and that that's why fire is described. I suggest to you that fire is representative of the glory of God. In any case, nothing in the Apocalypse suggests either that this was the surface of the sun or that the phenomena being described are a helium cycle. Nibley is to be commended for his imagination, but in no way does this lend evidentiary support to the Book of Abraham.

-CK

[_aussieguy55]

Kerry seems to see himself as some intellectual warrier for the Book of Abraham taking over from Nibley. Is he doing the same and pulling sources from different centuries and places to make it look like he has an argument. Using the KISS principle in studying Fac 3 its nothing to do with Abraham. Why would a Prince and a slave be holding onto a waiter. The scholars tell us this is Hor being brought before Osirus. Isis and Maat are present.that's why non and ex Mormons shake their heads in amazement at the energy and time spent on salvaging the Book of Abraham.

[_jimmyspa]

Kerry seems to see himself as some intellectual warrier for the Book of Abraham taking over from Nibley. Is he doing the same and pulling sources from different centuries and places to make it look like he has an argument. Using the KISS principle in studying Fac 3 its nothing to do with Abraham. Why would a Prince and a slave be holding onto a waiter. The scholars tell us this is Hor being brought before Osirus. Isis and Maat are present.that's why non and ex Mormons shake their heads in amazement at the energy and time spent on salvaging the Book of Abraham.

In another LDS forum some time ago a LDS scholar said that arguing
with KS is wasting one´s time because he lacks any scholarly ability
or credentials and only muddles up things and blabbers away uncomfortable
facts giving a very poor impression of LDS honesty and true scholarly ability.

Jimmy

[_Mercury]

That’s just not so. The Church doesn’t stand or fall based on what has been said about the Book of Abraham translation processes. We are not a perfect people and we don’t interpret everything perfectly – everyone makes mistakes and everyone has misunderstandings.

Actually paul, you forget that Mormonism is what we are debating and the only intelectual property that matters IS what has beensaid previously about Mormonism and not your attempts towards grasping at straws.

Admit it or look like a fool.

[_Gazelam]

1) This story, apparently unknown to pre-1st c. texts and obviously based on Daniel's fiery furnace, is based on true events experienced by Abraham.

Throwing prophets into fires was a pretty common theme in olden times. Why does it have to be attributed to Daniel?

I don't know where the earliest known account of the story comes from. There are allusions to it in the 15th chapter of Genesis.

The link I provided led to a copy of one of the midrash, the date of its writing I don't know. But it recounts the same story of Nimrod (pharaoh) offering Abraham as a sacrifice.

[_Gazelam]

I wrote:

In this journey it is expressed that there is order and government in all of this, beginning with the world upon which the Father dwells and extending outward toward all creation.

The lesson in astronomy, with Abraham expressing life upon other worlds and the breadth of the plan of salvation, serves as a dual lesson in that it expresses the width and breadth of the priesthood and Gods order in all things.

The key words as also bring all of this back to the creation of the human spirit. This expresses variance and different degrees of glory, just as there is varience and different degrees of glory in the human spirits that are organized. Some are capable of supporting life and some are not. The chapter ends with the plan of salvation expressed to those spirits organized under the direction of Christ and their being tested to see if they are worthy to progress in the priesthood.

This is what was taught to the court of Pharaoh by Abraham. Pharaoh desiring priesthood but being unable to bear it since he was a decendent of Ham.

I hope the above was all referring to the Book of Abraham, because none of it is found in the Apocalypse of Abraham.

-CK


In answer to this, I was refering to the 3rd chapter of the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price. Its where the Astronomy lesson is given, as well as the Doctrine of the pre-existence.