Why Do Mormons Have a Tendancy to be Judgmental?

[_Yoda]

The heirarchy of the church was created for one reason: to sustain the status quo. From the beginnings of the church, the leaders have sought to fortify their personal gain first, the status of the church itself second, and as an afterthought, they worried about the members only as circumstances forced them to.

I think the reason for the judgmentalism is rooted deep in church history. Our ancestors took great pride in being a "peculiar people". Due to the circumstances under which they lived, some of which they brought on themselves, they were persecuted, threatened, and driven out for being peculiar. It became a badge of honor, to be part of this peculiar people. Marching to one's own drummer was not acceptable; one had to march to the drummer called to lead the peculiar people in order to be acceptable. They judged, and judged harshly, based only on gossip and rumors. The same system is still in place today. Members are called into the bishop's office for a little chat, based on rumors and gossip. People are excommunicated, based on rumors and gossip. Some of our most basic foolishness, or as Packer says, "the unwritten order of things", a woman and man not married to each other are to not ride together to a meeting, eating with someone not one's spouse in a public place is forbidden, missionaries cannot ride in a car with a single woman, a single woman or family of only women cannot feed the missionaries in the family home, men should never openly visit women who live alone, etc. It is all based on accepting gossip and rumor as fact, which the Saints have done for generations, going to back to when Joseph was maligning the women who refused to marry him as whores. (That's one of the reasons why women are told to stay home with the children. What happens in many office settings? Women and men must work together, eat together, go to meetings together. The church cannot control the office setting, so they strive to control the women.)

I missed your post earlier, Harmony.

Yes, the whole "appearance of evil" concept was strongly preached in the 80's. It seems to have tapered off a little bit. But the rules around missionaries eating in a home with a single Mom, etc. are still very staunchly abided by.

It's interesting because I had never really correlated the whole concept of gossip and Church discipline with the early Church before you mentioned it.

Did Joseph really refer to the women who refused to marry him as whores? I would be curious as to where this is documented.

[_Doctor Steuss]

Michael Jackson picks his nose (der’s a pun in ‘Democrat ‘der hills).

[_wenglund]

The heirarchy of the church was created for one reason: to sustain the status quo. From the beginnings of the church, the leaders have sought to fortify their personal gain first, the status of the church itself second, and as an afterthought, they worried about the members only as circumstances forced them to.

I think the reason for the judgmentalism is rooted deep in church history. Our ancestors took great pride in being a "peculiar people". Due to the circumstances under which they lived, some of which they brought on themselves, they were persecuted, threatened, and driven out for being peculiar. It became a badge of honor, to be part of this peculiar people. Marching to one's own drummer was not acceptable; one had to march to the drummer called to lead the peculiar people in order to be acceptable. They judged, and judged harshly, based only on gossip and rumors. The same system is still in place today. Members are called into the bishop's office for a little chat, based on rumors and gossip. People are excommunicated, based on rumors and gossip. Some of our most basic foolishness, or as Packer says, "the unwritten order of things", a woman and man not married to each other are to not ride together to a meeting, eating with someone not one's spouse in a public place is forbidden, missionaries cannot ride in a car with a single woman, a single woman or family of only women cannot feed the missionaries in the family home, men should never openly visit women who live alone, etc. It is all based on accepting gossip and rumor as fact, which the Saints have done for generations, going to back to when Joseph was maligning the women who refused to marry him as whores. (That's one of the reasons why women are told to stay home with the children. What happens in many office settings? Women and men must work together, eat together, go to meetings together. The church cannot control the office setting, so they strive to control the women.)

Just out of curiousity, Harmony, do you consider yourself as, at times, judgemental?

If so, do you, as a member of the Chruch, attribute your judgementalism to what you describe above?

I ask because I thing we too often over-complicate and misdirect some things by looking externally to explain certain attitudes and behaviors, whereas the simple key may lie within. I know that when I introspected on the issue, I didn't find Church history or male/female Church practices, etc., at the heart of it. I found me, and my own imperfections. No one is to fault for my judgementalism or other bad behaviors--particularly since I became an adult. And, I would submit that the same is true for other members, such as yourself, or even non-members, who are judgemental.

The other concern I have for people looking externally for the cause of certain attitudes and behaviors, is that it may illegitimately give cause for excuse. One may say (though not rightly) that they can't be faulted for their judgementalism, and/or one cannot stop their judgementalism, because it is supposedly caused by the Church or something else, or because it is allegedly a systemic problem rather than a personal issue. In other words, thinking this way may inadvertantly enslave people to bad behaviors and dis-empower them from improving themselves in that area.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I can be pretty judgmental. It's something I work on every day. I'd say that my problems with judgmentalism stem partly from the way I was brought up (and that includes the influence of the church) and partly from my own insecurities. It's much easier to feel better about yourself when you look outward and focus on the ways that others don't meet up to your standards.

There's sort of a catch-22 in the church, as I read it. You're not supposed to judge, but then you're supposed to avoid "even the appearance of evil" and stay away from people and places that might lead you into temptation. How are you supposed to figure out who or what might do that without judging? And as a member when I expressed tolerance for people who didn't adhere to church standards, I was sometimes accused of making excuses for sin.

So, there's a fine line between judging righteously and being judgmental. I'm not really sure where that line is. I guess I'd rather err on the side of tolerance and compassion.

[_Mister Scratch]

Just out of curiousity, Harmony, do you consider yourself as, at times, judgemental?

If so, do you, as a member of the Chruch, attribute your judgementalism to what you describe above?

I ask because I thing we too often over-complicate and misdirect some things by looking externally to explain certain attitudes and behaviors, whereas the simple key may lie within.

Wade--- How is acknowledging the role that the Church itself plays in this an instance of "over-complicat[ing]"? It seems perfectly simple to me to look in *both* places.

I know that when I introspected on the issue, I didn't find Church history or male/female Church practices, etc., at the heart of it. I found me, and my own imperfections. No one is to fault for my judgementalism or other bad behaviors--particularly since I became an adult.

Gee, that's not the least bit condescending. Or judgmental.

And, I would submit that the same is true for other members, such as yourself, or even non-members, who are judgemental.

But the question in the OP dealt specifically with Mormon judgmentalism. Are you contending that it does not exist? I.e., that judgmentalism cannot have a peculiarly Mormon flavor?

The other concern I have for people looking externally for the cause of certain attitudes and behaviors, is that it may illegitimately give cause for excuse. One may say (though not rightly) that they can't be faulted for their judgementalism, and/or one cannot stop their judgementalism, because it is supposedly caused by the Church or something else, or because it is allegedly a systemic problem rather than a personal issue. In other words, thinking this way may inadvertantly enslave people to bad behaviors and dis-empower them from improving themselves in that area.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't follow your logic here, Wade. Further, I think that your slavery analogy was awfully strained. It is asinine to think that slavery would have ended sooner if each individual slave owner suddenly "looked inward."

Bottomline: is is *both* a systemic and a personal issue. To ignore half of the equation is intellectually dishonest.

[_Yoda]

The other concern I have for people looking externally for the cause of certain attitudes and behaviors, is that it may illegitimately give cause for excuse. One may say (though not rightly) that they can't be faulted for their judgementalism, and/or one cannot stop their judgementalism, because it is supposedly caused by the Church or something else, or because it is allegedly a systemic problem rather than a personal issue. In other words, thinking this way may inadvertantly enslave people to bad behaviors and dis-empower them from improving themselves in that area.

I strongly agree with this.

I think, however, that Harmony was addressing my original OP. Why do Mormons, in particular, tend to have a problem with being judgmental, even though our basic gospel principles preach against it?

And I do think that Harmony and Blixa have a point. The culture of the early Church and the structure of the modern Church certainly do contribute to how being judgmental is an easy trap for members to fall into.

As we have been discussing, however, it certainly doesn't make it right. And, there are things that we, as individuals can do, to combat this tendancy.

Wade...Let me pose this question to you..and any other Church members, in particular, who would care to weigh in on this.

What are some things that we can do, individually, in our various callings, that could move this process of being less judgmental toward others forward?

[_Yoda]

So, there's a fine line between judging righteously and being judgmental. I'm not really sure where that line is. I guess I'd rather err on the side of tolerance and compassion.

That, my friend, is a signature worthy statement.

:)

[_Mercury]

The gospel does not encourage this type of behavior, yet it seems to be very prevalent in Church members.

I disagree. Mormon culture is at its basest levels a surveilance society built on top of a social network. it is by design a tattle-tale enforcing group.

[_Yoda]

The gospel does not encourage this type of behavior, yet it seems to be very prevalent in Church members.

I disagree. Mormon culture is at its basest levels a surveilance society built on top of a social network. it is by design a tattle-tale enforcing group.

When I'm speaking of the gospel, I'm referring to the scriptures. I agree that the current culture of Mormonism lends itself to judgmentalism, and I think it's a shame that it does. I see a huge contrast in the cultural organizational structure of the Church and what is supposedly being taught.

[_Mercury]

The gospel does not encourage this type of behavior, yet it seems to be very prevalent in Church members.

I disagree. Mormon culture is at its basest levels a surveilance society built on top of a social network. it is by design a tattle-tale enforcing group.

When I'm speaking of the gospel, I'm referring to the scriptures. I agree that the current culture of Mormonism lends itself to judgmentalism, and I think it's a shame that it does. I see a huge contrast in the cultural organizational structure of the Church and what is supposedly being taught.

the "gospel", scriptures, talks, prescribed lessons etc are filler for the Mormon culture. the church is FIRST a subculture and secondly a religion. This is my perception, haven't really dug too deep into it though.