Shout out to RenegadeofPhunk!!!

[_beastie]

Oh, and one more thing - I'm interested in your response to Pratt's statement.

Pratt believed people who discovered the Book of Mormon to be a fraud had a moral obligation to share that information. You and your other MADdites who want people who discover the Book of Mormon to be a fraud to shut up and go away. Why the difference?

[_Runtu]

You're not sure where the personal animus comes from Runtu? Just look at the attacks on everyone being launched from here. Surely you're not that blind!

There are a lot of attacks here from both sides, or have you never read anything from Coggins? What I don't understand is why you suddenly decided I'm one of the nasty attackers.

I was not an "embittered unbeliever", and have never changed my belief in the Book of Mormon in 33 years!

Ray, when I met you, you told me you'd had a rough time out of the church and that people had treated you badly. You also said that, although you believed in the Book of Mormon, you did not believe in the church in the way that most Mormons do, If I recall correctly. And you seemed pretty bitter to me then, which is why I said "seemingly embittered unbeliever." It's hard to read people over an internet connection, but that was my impression.

I learned something most of you haven't. And that is that if you treat Mormons (on the net) with respect and courtesy, and don't insult them, and don't mock their religion, in any way, then relations will improve.

I don't know about you, but I have indeed tried to treat Mormons and non-Mormons with respect and courtesy without insulting them or mocking their religion. I know I've not always succeeded. But I try.

But as long as you feel this "need" to be smart and even offhandedly insulting, you will never see the reasons for this discord.

I've never had a need to be smart, and what you read as offhandedly insulting was not intended that way. I understand why people are angry with each other, and I've been asking for more kindness and respect for years. I gather you believe that my calls for such are hypocritical. Maybe they are. I'm trying to do better.

If you always insist on blaming the other person or party, there's no chance of reconciliation. Again, it's like a divorce. Right or wrong, give your "ex-spouse" some leeway, some slack. But what do the mob here so? Attack, attack, attack - it's ALL "their" fault. They must apologise, you are the sole victim, they are always in the wrong. Any human being with a smidgen of fairness can see how unbalanced this approach is.

Ray, I haven't blamed anyone else. I've said consistently that we all share the blame for the rancor. I've not asked you or anyone else to apologize, but instead have apologized to you for misreading what you said. That's all I can do, Ray.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Does your bishop know you have these views? If so, what does he think?

Yes, he does. He honors my right to think and opine as I choose.

"Honours"? "Honours"? He "honours" the fact that 24/7 all you have is criticisms of the Church?

"24/7"? I just pointed out a postive post of mine just one week ago. There you go with hyperbole again ....

I doubt he knows what you post. Do you show him your posts?

He and I have had a private discussion about it -- he's well aware of what I post. But, unlike you, he's a proponent of free thought and speech ... you know, that little thing we call 'agency.'

Does he know your 24/7 critical and negative obsession with one of the most respected apologists of Mormonism?

Unbelievable. You actually think a member should suffer ecclesiastical punishment for exposing DCP as the gossip he is. Your worship of DCP is bordering on idolatry, bub.

If I was your bishop I would give you a good kick in the ass and ask you to decide whose side you're on.

And whose side are you on -- God's or the gossip DCP? You can't be on both, no matter how you spin it.

[_Yoda]

Thanks, beastie. That means a lot to me. It's just ironic that I met Ray when he was a seemingly embittered unbeliever, and I was a believer trying to help. Just last week I told a newcomer to be nice to Ray because he had been through some rough times. I'm just not sure where the personal animus came from. It makes me a little sad.

You're not sure where the personal animus comes from Runtu? Just look at the attacks on everyone being launched from here. Surely you're not that blind!

I was not an "embittered unbeliever", and have never changed my belief in the Book of Mormon in 33 years! I learned something most of you haven't. And that is that if you treat Mormons (on the net) with respect and courtesy, and don't insult them, and don't mock their religion, in any way, then relations will improve. But as long as you feel this "need" to be smart and even offhandedly insulting, you will never see the reasons for this discord. If you always insist on blaming the other person or party, there's no chance of reconciliation. Again, it's like a divorce. Right or wrong, give your "ex-spouse" some leeway, some slack. But what do the mob here so? Attack, attack, attack - it's ALL "their" fault. They must apologise, you are the sole victim, they are always in the wrong. Any human being with a smidgen of fairness can see how unbalanced this approach is.

And what have you done throughout most of this thread, Ray? You have "attacked, attacked, attacked."

When you and I have had private conversations, you have been very fair-minded. What's happening here?

The personal attacks DO need to stop....on BOTH sides of the aisle.

But you seem to be holding a blind eye to the fact that it IS happening on both sides. Juliann and Pahoran, in particular, have viciously attacked several members of this board. In my observation, DCP's approach seems to be more like Wade's. He tends to parse his barbs with condescention rather than out and out attack. And, frankly, Wade's approach has improved, and I think that he can tell you that part of that improvement has been through his interaction with folks here.

At this point, I think you're right about trying to keep score about "who started what", and that we should make a concerted effort to get along with one another.

I think that this board war is stupid.

But you know what? We're all adults, and until BOTH sides recognize that things need to improve, I doubt things are going to change very rapidly.

[_Runtu]

At this point, I think you're right about trying to keep score about "who started what", and that we should make a concerted effort to get along with one another.

I think that this board war is stupid.

But you know what? We're all adults, and until BOTH sides recognize that things need to improve, I doubt things are going to change very rapidly.

That's what I've been trying to say. If we stopped pointing fingers and tried to get along, we probably would get along.

[_beastie]

I think that this board war is stupid.

But you know what? We're all adults, and until BOTH sides recognize that things need to improve, I doubt things are going to change very rapidly.

The problem is that when some of the adults - on both sides - think the other side is working for satan, getting along just isn't going to happen.

[_Ray A]

I think this thread has run its course. There will be no reconciliation, and there will be no more dialogue.

You will live and learn - the hard way.

[_beastie]

I think Orson deserves at least a passing comment.

[_Blixa]

So do I! It was a provocative quote, beastie. Thanks for drawing my attention to it!

[_beastie]

You're welcome. I've used it before, and seen it used by other exmormons.

I can't recall a single believer responding to it.