Why Do Mormons Have a Tendancy to be Judgmental?

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_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:Thanks for providing this examples. However, I am not sure how this constitutes judgementalism instead of a logical deduction. Any time guidance or counsel or rules are given (even in secular settings), it may be said of those who do not follow the guidance and so forth, that they are less valiant in following the guidance, or less obedient of the rule. If the governmental law says not to exceed the posted speed limit, then logically doesn't this reinforce that someone exceeding the speed limit is less valiant in obeying that traffic law? Is that judgementalism? I don't see that it is.


That would be fine and good if the implication weren't that less-valiant in following the prophet means that said person is "bad" or "unfaithful" or unworthy of temple marriage or whatever. We have no way of knowing the reasons behind the action. And that's judgmental. To extend your analogy, if I see someone speeding, I might assume that they are "less valiant" or habitual speeders or reckless or something. But if I look into the car and find a passenger is bleeding profusely and is being rushed to the hospital, my judgments are shown to be incorrect and based on surface appearances. Which is what I am talking about in regards to this example.

Now, if someone went beyond that logical deduction and made inappropriate value judgements (for example, were someone to say that Susie is a bad and evil person for wearing to sets of earings, or Johnny is a very bad person for breaking the speeed limit and people should not associate with him), then that would be judgementalism.


That happens all the time in the church, Wade. I believe that's the case in Bednar's praising a young man for breaking off an engagement over earrings. The implication is that a girl who doesn't remove her superfluous earrings is unworthy of marrying a righteous priesthood holder in the temple.

However, in this case, I would submit that it is not Hinkley's guidance and Bednar's example that excouraged the judgementalism, but the thoughts of the person who went beyond the logical deduction and made an inappropriate value judgement. In other words, it was encouraged by the mindset of the judgementalist.


I would respectfully and nonjudgmentally disagree.

I would also submit that in such cases, were the judgementalist to be unaware of his/her judgementalism, his/her awareness is in no way being inhibit by the counsel and example, but again by the mindset of the judgmentalist.

At least that is how I see it.


Again, given the examples, I disagree.

Perhaps, though, one may say that the young man in Bednar's example was being judgemental. That is certainly possible, though I believe it is equally or more plausible that the young man was merely made an assessment of compatibility regarding one of the most important decisions of his life (it depends on what-all went through the young man's mind and what the young man may have said about his fiance). Just as it may NOT be judgementalism for a young woman, for safety reasons, to decide not drive in a car on a date with a person known to break the speed limit, it may not be judgementalism for the young man to decide, on the same basis, not to marry the young women with two sets of earings.


I have no idea what the boy's thought process was, but the use of the example by Bednar was a tacit endorsement of judgmentalism, as I see it.

Granted, some may differ in the criteria they may use in choosing a mate. But, who are we to judge this young man and his decision. ;-)


Well, I'm not judging him. I'm more concerned with the broad application of this one act by a GA.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Heh. We have 2 different TBM opinions here.

BC says 'it's ok to be judgemental - the Bible commands it'.

Wade says 'the church doesn't teach people to be judgemental - the members are at fault'.

So take your pick, all the bases are covered. Either way, as usual, the church is perfect and isn't at fault for anything.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Who Knows wrote:Heh. We have 2 different TBM opinions here.

BC says 'it's ok to be judgemental - the Bible commands it'.

Wade says 'the church doesn't teach people to be judgemental - the members are at fault'.

So take your pick, all the bases are covered. Either way, as usual, the church isn't at fault.


As I said, I don't think the church "causes" the judgmentalism, but it does direct its form. But, yeah, maybe we should let BC and Wade duke it out.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

I haven't read much of the thread. But if I had to hazard a guess as to why Mormons are judgmental, I'd say it's because they think they're special. They think they're god's chosen. They think they're going to be gods one day themselves. They feel like they're in on a big secret that only they know about. They think they have special powers - a.k.a. the priesthood. They think they're protected by their underwear. They think they're the only ones with special communications with god - a.k.a. the gift of the holy ghost.

But this is probably true with any other religion that has such 'special' claims.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Hi Runtu,

Doesn't the variance between your's and my perception support what I have been saying? I mean, both of us I hear the same guidance and example, and yet we each view it quite differently. You saw "implications" that I didn't see. Why is that? And more importantly, where did that difference occur? In the phrasing of the guidance and example, or in our respective minds?

I would submit the latter.

Could the difference be because one or the other of us is more/less inclined to view things in judgemental ways, or more/less judgemental of General Authorities and members? I don't know--it's not really my place to judge. But, it may be something to consider.

Also, I don't know if it is judgemental to logically (deductively and/or inductively) conclude that someone who is speeding is less valiant in observing posted speed limits, regardless of the reason for speeding, and particularly if one doesn't know the reasons. That someone may have good cause to break the speed limit, doesn't alter the fact that they are breaking the speed limit, which logically makes them less valiant in obeying the speed limit than those rigorously obeying the law. Viewing it that way is, to me, more an observation than judgementalism.

I think it important to draw a distinction between rational, value-free observations, and judgementalism, as well as reasonable value judgements and judgementalism. With the former, it is the difference between saying, in regards to someone speeding, "Hey...that guy is breaking the law" and "Hey...that guy is an idiot"; and with the latter, it is the difference between saying, "Hey...it may not be safe to drive with that guy around" and "Hey...that guy is stupidly dangerous and a threat to society, and should have his driving privileges revoked".

Are all of these statements problematic or ill-advised? I don't happen to think so. I only find the "idiot" and "stupidly dangerous" statements to be of any concern or in need of correction.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Runtu wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Heh. We have 2 different TBM opinions here.

BC says 'it's ok to be judgemental - the Bible commands it'.

Wade says 'the church doesn't teach people to be judgemental - the members are at fault'.

So take your pick, all the bases are covered. Either way, as usual, the church isn't at fault.


As I said, I don't think the church "causes" the judgmentalism, but it does direct its form. But, yeah, maybe we should let BC and Wade duke it out.


Please see my post above where I draw a distinction between judging and judgementalism. BC and I are not at odds or in disagreement. I believe, as the scriptures say, that we should judge righteously (i.e. make judgements), though not unrighteously (i.e. not be judgemental).

Do you both understand the difference?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

wenglund wrote:
Runtu wrote:
Who Knows wrote:Heh. We have 2 different TBM opinions here.

BC says 'it's ok to be judgemental - the Bible commands it'.

Wade says 'the church doesn't teach people to be judgemental - the members are at fault'.

So take your pick, all the bases are covered. Either way, as usual, the church isn't at fault.


As I said, I don't think the church "causes" the judgmentalism, but it does direct its form. But, yeah, maybe we should let BC and Wade duke it out.


Please see my post above where I draw a distinction between judging and judgementalism. BC and I are not at odds or in disagreement. I believe, as the scriptures say, that we should judge righteously (I.e. make judgements), though not unrighteously (I.e. not be judgemental).

Do you both understand the difference?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


No, Wade. What's the difference?
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

wenglund wrote:I think it important to draw a distinction between rational, value-free observations, and judgementalism, as well as reasonable value judgements and judgementalism. With the former, it is the difference between saying, in regards to someone speeding, "Hey...that guy is breaking the law" and "Hey...that guy is an idiot"; and with the latter, it is the difference between saying, "Hey...it may not be safe to drive with that guy around" and "Hey...that guy is stupidly dangerous and a threat to society, and should have his driving privileges revoked".


I think that's where the distinction should lie, so I guess we agree. I don't see the "less-valiant" earring wearer example to be a value-free observation. And of course our different perspectives determine whether we see it as such or not. It's important to note again that I don't believe Mormonism to be any more or less judgmental than other similar religions. I'm also not assigning negative value. You might say I'm just observing. ;-)

Are all of these statements problematic or ill-advised? I don't happen to think so. I only find the "idiot" and "stupidly dangerous" statements to be of any concern or in need of correction.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Agreed, Wade. The main difference is that you don't see anything analogous to "idiot" and "stupidly dangerous" in the church. That I do does indeed speak to our differing experiences and perceptions, as it should.
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Mister Scratch wrote:
wenglund wrote:Please see my post above where I draw a distinction between judging and judgementalism. BC and I are not at odds or in disagreement. I believe, as the scriptures say, that we should judge righteously (I.e. make judgements), though not unrighteously (I.e. not be judgemental).

Do you both understand the difference?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


No, Wade. What's the difference?


Here's the difference. If wade does it, it's righteous judging. if someone he doesn't agree with does it, it' unrighteous judgementalism.

You're forgetting something scratch. Wade and the church are always right. anyone who disagrees is wrong.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Some good posts here! Wade, going back to yer cigar story: It was at a time of adolescence, a time of extreme tribalism. You're in the tribe or yer not, generally speaking...

LDSism is a Tribe. To be in the tribe you have yer do's and don't. Violate them at risk of losing yer status. Means more to some than others... Authoritarianism and unquestioned obedience go hand in hand AND base LDSism. To not see this is, IMSCO, to be in denial of Mormon rationalism.

It is a pretty stupid person who does not evaluate, assess, and appraise their environment and those who make it up.

This can hardly be called 'judgemental' in the same way as the aspersion casting of those who ridicule, or call attention to personal, individual characteristics, appearances, costuming etc of another, that would not be seen or heard by a visually, or hearing impared person.

"Causation" or "catalyst" it matters not. The immature and insecure who play adolescent games, at any age, do not good company make... In my assessment. :-) Warm regards, Roger
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