Why Do Mormons Have a Tendancy to be Judgmental?

[_Who Knows]

Could you please provide me with what you believe to be an example of my alleged "condescension" so that I can reasonably and openmindedly determine if it is an actual case of me being condescending (judgemental) or you misreading condescension into what I said (perhaps because of your own condescension and judgementalism), so that I can make the necessary improvement if warranted. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

If you seriously can't see the fact that every one of your posts is dripping in condescension, then nothing i provide will help you see it.

It was just a suggestion. If you don't see it, disregard my advice.

Just trying to help you out man.

[_Who Knows]

In all fairness wade, I think sometimes it's hard to recognize when one is being condescending.

I look back to when i first got married, and i realize now, how condescending i was to my wife sometimes. I did things a certain way, and if she did them in a different way, i might have said something like:

"That's great honey, but i like to do it this way, i've found that it works better".

It didn't 'click', till my wife basically told me one day how condescending i was being. After i thought about it, i knew she was right.

Man, i'm almost embarrassed for myself sometimes.

Anyhow, maybe you're just not seeing it, and it's just going to take some of us pointing it out for you to realize it. Just read my quote above, and honestly think to yourself whether your posts come off that way.

Or, maybe you know what you're doing. But regardless, whether you realize it or not, you're likely going to have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

[_Blixa]

Well, liz started this thread, and as it seems to be winding down I'd be interested to know what she thinks of the whole conversation...

[_wenglund]

In all fairness wade, I think sometimes it's hard to recognize when one is being condescending.

I look back to when I first got married, and I realize now, how condescending I was to my wife sometimes. I did things a certain way, and if she did them in a different way, I might have said something like:

"That's great honey, but I like to do it this way, I've found that it works better".

It didn't 'click', till my wife basically told me one day how condescending I was being. After I thought about it, I knew she was right.

Man, I'm almost embarrassed for myself sometimes.

Anyhow, maybe you're just not seeing it, and it's just going to take some of us pointing it out for you to realize it. Just read my quote above, and honestly think to yourself whether your posts come off that way.

Or, maybe you know what you're doing. But regardless, whether you realize it or not, you're likely going to have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

In all honesty, I don't think so much in condescending terms like: who is better or worse, or who is more worthy or not, or who is more intelligent or wise or not, etc. Rather, I think more in terms of what works and may improve the quality of people's lives (points I have iterated and reiterated on this board many times--not the least of which on this thread). So, I don't think condescension is being suggested or implied by me.

However, I do understand that for some, the "you" statements are more vulnerable to being misinterpreted in that way, and so I have been particularly careful to avoid them, and to use instead the seemingly benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements instead.

That you would deem even my "I" statements as "condescending", raises question whether there is any way that I or anyone else may say things, by way of disagreement or by way of mentioning methods of improving the human condition, or things and ways that some might think better than others, that you wouldn't find condescending?

It raises questions about whether you have a proper sense of perspective and balance, or perhaps whether certain hypersensitivities or insecurities may be distorting your view--i.e. whether you are judgemental or not.

It raises questions whether you have an unhealthy and dysfunctional aversion to even the most benign and indirect forms of feedback and interaction?

And, it raises question whether you are falsely projecting your own admitted condescension onto me (particularly given your many "you" statements to me).

If the answers to the questions above are "yes", then I am not sure it would matter what I said. With you, I wouldn't be any more successful than were I to actually think condescendingly and speak to you in clearly condescending ways.

But, I am open to being wrong. It is possible that I unknowing think in condescending ways, and even that the benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements are embued with condescension, though it would take more than your just saying so to convince me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Well, liz started this thread, and as it seems to be winding down I'd be interested to know what she thinks of the whole conversation...

I am actually very pleased with all of the responses. Thanks for all of the contributions, guys!

[_Yoda]

In all fairness wade, I think sometimes it's hard to recognize when one is being condescending.

I look back to when I first got married, and I realize now, how condescending I was to my wife sometimes. I did things a certain way, and if she did them in a different way, I might have said something like:

"That's great honey, but I like to do it this way, I've found that it works better".

It didn't 'click', till my wife basically told me one day how condescending I was being. After I thought about it, I knew she was right.

Man, I'm almost embarrassed for myself sometimes.

Anyhow, maybe you're just not seeing it, and it's just going to take some of us pointing it out for you to realize it. Just read my quote above, and honestly think to yourself whether your posts come off that way.

Or, maybe you know what you're doing. But regardless, whether you realize it or not, you're likely going to have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

In all honesty, I don't think so much in condescending terms like: who is better or worse, or who is more worthy or not, or who is more intelligent or wise or not, etc. Rather, I think more in terms of what works and may improve the quality of people's lives (points I have iterated and reiterated on this board many times--not the least of which on this thread). So, I don't think condescension is being suggested or implied by me.

However, I do understand that for some, the "you" statements are more vulnerable to being misinterpreted in that way, and so I have been particularly careful to avoid them, and to use instead the seemingly benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements instead.

That you would deem even my "I" statements as "condescending", raises question whether there is any way that I or anyone else may say things, by way of disagreement or by way of mentioning methods of improving the human condition, or things and ways that some might think better than others, that you wouldn't find condescending?

It raises questions about whether you have a proper sense of perspective and balance, or perhaps whether certain hypersensitivities or insecurities may be distorting your view--I.e. whether you are judgemental or not.

It raises questions whether you have an unhealthy and dysfunctional aversion to even the most benign and indirect forms of feedback and interaction?

And, it raises question whether you are falsely projecting your own admitted condescension onto me (particularly given your many "you" statements to me).

If the answers to the questions above are "yes", then I am not sure it would matter what I said. With you, I wouldn't be any more successful than were I to actually think condescendingly and speak to you in clearly condescending ways.

But, I am open to being wrong. It is possible that I unknowing think in condescending ways, and even that the benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements are embued with condescension, though it would take more than your just saying so to convince me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade---

For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of growth in your approach to others and in your posts over the short time I have gotten to know you on MDB.

I think that you can agree that when you began posting, you were very condescending in your approach. You used tactics such as "mirroring behavior", etc.

After you dropped your initial armor and actually got to know some of us as people, you "warmed up to us", and your approach changed.

Now, we can "agree to disagree" and still be civil toward one another. It has been a nice change to see!

:)

Liz

[_wenglund]

In all fairness wade, I think sometimes it's hard to recognize when one is being condescending.

I look back to when I first got married, and I realize now, how condescending I was to my wife sometimes. I did things a certain way, and if she did them in a different way, I might have said something like:

"That's great honey, but I like to do it this way, I've found that it works better".

It didn't 'click', till my wife basically told me one day how condescending I was being. After I thought about it, I knew she was right.

Man, I'm almost embarrassed for myself sometimes.

Anyhow, maybe you're just not seeing it, and it's just going to take some of us pointing it out for you to realize it. Just read my quote above, and honestly think to yourself whether your posts come off that way.

Or, maybe you know what you're doing. But regardless, whether you realize it or not, you're likely going to have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

In all honesty, I don't think so much in condescending terms like: who is better or worse, or who is more worthy or not, or who is more intelligent or wise or not, etc. Rather, I think more in terms of what works and may improve the quality of people's lives (points I have iterated and reiterated on this board many times--not the least of which on this thread). So, I don't think condescension is being suggested or implied by me.

However, I do understand that for some, the "you" statements are more vulnerable to being misinterpreted in that way, and so I have been particularly careful to avoid them, and to use instead the seemingly benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements instead.

That you would deem even my "I" statements as "condescending", raises question whether there is any way that I or anyone else may say things, by way of disagreement or by way of mentioning methods of improving the human condition, or things and ways that some might think better than others, that you wouldn't find condescending?

It raises questions about whether you have a proper sense of perspective and balance, or perhaps whether certain hypersensitivities or insecurities may be distorting your view--I.e. whether you are judgemental or not.

It raises questions whether you have an unhealthy and dysfunctional aversion to even the most benign and indirect forms of feedback and interaction?

And, it raises question whether you are falsely projecting your own admitted condescension onto me (particularly given your many "you" statements to me).

If the answers to the questions above are "yes", then I am not sure it would matter what I said. With you, I wouldn't be any more successful than were I to actually think condescendingly and speak to you in clearly condescending ways.

But, I am open to being wrong. It is possible that I unknowing think in condescending ways, and even that the benign and self-critical/helpful "I" statements are embued with condescension, though it would take more than your just saying so to convince me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade---

For what it's worth, I have seen a lot of growth in your approach to others and in your posts over the short time I have gotten to know you on MDB.

I think that you can agree that when you began posting, you were very condescending in your approach. You used tactics such as "mirroring behavior", etc.

After you dropped your initial armor and actually got to know some of us as people, you "warmed up to us", and your approach changed.

Now, we can "agree to disagree" and still be civil toward one another. It has been a nice change to see! :) Liz

Hi Liz,

It is worth alot to me to have you say so.

However, not that is matters much, but I thought my perceived "arrogance" when first posting here was very mild in comparison to those I was "mirroring" (I had backed way off from the tit-for-tat mirroring I used to do).

And, my continual change didn't occur because I warmed up to folks here, but rather because I realized there are functional and dysfunctional approaches when dialoguing with those one disagrees with, and I decided to employ, as best as possible, the functional approaches, and to model those functional approachs and evince the benefits derived from using them (such as the "warming up"), so that those here who are prone to the dysfunctional, may be motivated to change as well. With perhaps very few expecptions, I have come to seriously doubt the success of that endevour. Some people seem staunchly disinclined to change, even when it would benefit them. As such, I am not sure if there is any value in my continuing to subject myself to the dysfunction--the postive interactions with you and Runtu and others to the contrary notwithstanding. I'll just have to see.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Some people seem staunchly disinclined to change, even when it would benefit them. As such, I am not sure if there is any value in my continuing to subject myself to the dysfunction--the postive interactions with you and Runtu and others to the contrary notwithstanding. I'll just have to see.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well...you can't really know what kind of an influence you are, or if someone is inclined to change later on down the road. It's really impossible to determine that, particularly on an anonymous message board.

I think, though, that even if someone staunchly disagrees with you, they can still respect what it is you are trying to say, and if your motives are sincere, respect your motives as well.

This, I think, is the key as to whether or not you can deem portraying your points a success or a failure.

For example, I disagree with Gaz on some issues regarding the Church, but we still have a healthy respect for each other. And there have been times when he has said things that I have initially disagreed with, but have pondered, and later agreed that he had a point. He has done the same thing with me.

Scratch and I have a similar relationship.

I hope you decide to stick around!

:)

[_Who Knows]

And, my continual change didn't occur because I warmed up to folks here, but rather because I realized there are functional and dysfunctional approaches when dialoguing with those one disagrees with, and I decided to employ, as best as possible, the functional approaches, and to model those functional approachs and evince the benefits derived from using them (such as the "warming up"), so that those here who are prone to the dysfunctional, may be motivated to change as well. With perhaps very few expecptions, I have come to seriously doubt the success of that endevour. Some people seem staunchly disinclined to change, even when it would benefit them. As such, I am not sure if there is any value in my continuing to subject myself to the dysfunction--the postive interactions with you and Runtu and others to the contrary notwithstanding. I'll just have to see.

Yeah, you're right - what was i thinking - you're never condescending.

[_wenglund]

And, my continual change didn't occur because I warmed up to folks here, but rather because I realized there are functional and dysfunctional approaches when dialoguing with those one disagrees with, and I decided to employ, as best as possible, the functional approaches, and to model those functional approachs and evince the benefits derived from using them (such as the "warming up"), so that those here who are prone to the dysfunctional, may be motivated to change as well. With perhaps very few expecptions, I have come to seriously doubt the success of that endevour. Some people seem staunchly disinclined to change, even when it would benefit them. As such, I am not sure if there is any value in my continuing to subject myself to the dysfunction--the postive interactions with you and Runtu and others to the contrary notwithstanding. I'll just have to see.

Yeah, you're right - what was I thinking - you're never condescending.

Let's see...in less than a single page worth of postings, your comments about me went from "every one of your post are dripping with condescension" to "you're never condescending".

I had thought to mention how this kind of extremist thinking may have a distorting affect on how you may misperceive even the most benign comments, but I didn't want to risk aggitating your extremist thinking again--though perhaps my saying so has already been interpreted in that way, and you will once again view my comments as "dripping with condescension". Whatever.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-