PBS Mormons Part 2 Thread

[_Mister Scratch]

Part two of the program seemed very different in tone for me. Simply put, it was far more critical and negative towards the Church. Seeing this pretty much blows away whatever gloating the TBMs on MAD were initially doing, about how folks on RfM and elsewhere would be disappointed that the film was "positive." Also, how old is Tal Bachman? He looks like a kid!

[Anonymous]

7. The lady pantomiming the temple death oaths was pretty shocking.

Yeah, that was good to get that in there. But I'm miffed that they didn't go into more detail surrounding the origins of the temple - the masonic connections, the desire to bind people to secrecy regarding plural marriage, etc.

That was the one thing that really bothered me. Not one mention of how the origins of the endowment came from Masonry.
I was quite shocked that lady made the signs of the penalties. Yikes, I bet many TBMs who went through pre 1990 were horrified.

I was also hoping to hear more on why LDS leaders have made many changes to the temple ordinances, which are considered the highest of ordinances. Mormons have always been so critical of how Catholics and other faiths have changed baptism from it's true form to prove there was an apostacy, yet they have significantly changed the most important ordinances to mainstream the church.

I have several thoughts on last night and sorry this is long. I believe the organization of the church is one of it's biggest positives. The structure of Wards taking care of each other like families is very helpful in time of crisis. I have always been impressed with the volunteer hours and humanitarian service given by the members. But I was surprised to see the segment on Katrina. Why did they portray the Mormons as the only ones in the area helping? That bothered me. I don't live in New Orleans, and can't testify as to who helped more, but from the media coverage there were MANY groups of all faiths or no faith giving their service to the victims.

The segments on intellectuals/apostates also frustrated me. The majority of ex Mormons, or inactives out there who find out the claims of the church are false, are in my opinion, not "intellectuals." Testimony/faith of any religion is not found by science or intellectualism, but by the spirit and study. I find the term "intellectual" is often used by LDS in a deragatory way so I wish they could have gone into more detail of why people begin to investigate the claims of the church. I doubt there is one TBM out there that will feel any sympathy for the intellectual community who is excommunicated because they are seen as "thinking their way out of Mormonism." It goes right along with the stereotype that we wanted to leave the church and didn't have the spirit. I would have appreciated more on how the former Mormon community are shunned as wicked apostates deceived by Satan for finding out the church isn't what it claims. We were lied to, deceived, misled etc. on our church's history and foundational claims. The church has torn families apart for having a difference of belief in doctrine and for investigating it's history. The minute we ask questions that are uncomfortable for members, we are viewed as entering Satan's grasp. It was appropriate they showed the history of scholars being exd but I wanted a voice for those like myself who are victims of bigotry in their own families and with LDS friends. How we were lazy, pround, sinning, not reading our scriptures enough.....

The temple and forever family segments could have been a paid advertisment for the church. I get irritated when Mormons proudly proclaim that we are the only faith that believes in "forever famlies." What a crock. Other faiths believe they will be with their loved ones in heaven! The difference of LDS belief is eternal marriage, which is often misunderstood by LDS, and involves polygamy to become Gods. I wish they had clarified that. How in all the temple information. did they miss that although LDS do not practice polygamy right now, they still seal men to mulitple wives if a spouse dies? They also failed to mention that the doctrine of polygamy is very much a foundational doctrine in the church and required for the highest level of the CK for any Mormon progressing to exaltation. This is the contradiction Mormons must face when they condemn Fundamentalists while believing in section 132 which requires they will one day be polygamists to have eternal progression.

They should have mentioned how damaging this belief can be for a child to hear that if they are not faithful to the church, they will not be with their family in heaven.

The missionary segment was very unflattering. It looked like they were Amway salesman. Showing the MTC and how they train the missionaries through watching themselves on TV looked really bad. Also, the missionaries hounding people on the streets looked like harrassment. The children singing "I hope they call me on a mission" made the church look like it brain washes members. Tal Bachman's comparison to suicide bombers to make a point about the level of obedience and fanaticism the church breeds, makes the church look a little scary to outsiders and too close to Islam.

There were far more positives in the second night but some of the negatives really reflected poorly on the church.

I think my favorite moments in the show were Boyd K. Packer's very uncomfortable moment on the 3 threats to the church, and the woman who re-enacted the penalty signs prior to 1990.

The most moving and touching segments for me were the woman who transformed her life by conversion, because I believe in her case religion has made her a better person. I believe the LDS church can be a positive force for those needing guidance in their wayward life. The man who lost his wife to childbirth was a tragic segment and broke my heart. I know so many women who have tempted fate to bring that person that is "missing" from their family to earth. Many LDS women get these inspirations that a child is missing from their dinner table and could easily see themselves fit into this story.

[_Seven]

But even worse, the part that made me want to reach through the screen and THROTTLE that idiot of a widowed husband was when he said, "If I had to do it all over again, . . . I think. . . well, . . . I'd probably have to reconsider."

What kind of insensitive jerk would allow his wife to die all over again just to bring a kid he'd never met and hadn't even been concieved yet into the world? Kid #8 or whatever it was?

I really felt for the dude. Obviously he loves kid #8, so to choose in hindsight between his wife and that child would be impossible for anyone, in my opinion. I don't feel I can fault him for anything.

I agree. I felt like he was in a very tough spot to choose between his child or wife. He was very honest and said some days he would say "no" he wouldn't do it again. That had to be a heart wrenching thing to admit if his child is living.

[_Seven]

That story pissed me off. Not at the church, but at the utter STUPIDITY of some people! Not to be insensitive, but for God's sake, after all that medical advice they received, what the Hell did they expect OTHER THAN that she'd die?

DUUUUUUH!

That was my point. The church drives it into our brains that we can all receive 'personal revelation'. Apparently, they thought they received some personal revelation - god telling them that it was a-ok for them to have another baby.

So what they hell did they expect? I'm sure they expected everything to work out fine.

Like Runtu pointed out, there is always an excuse for however the story turns out and it always involves God's will to LDS.
I have heard stories of women who went against the Dr.'s advice that another child would be fatal to the mother, but her revelation trumped it. Some of them use their survival stories as a faith promoting experience and it gives other women pressure or inspiration to go against better judgement. The ones who die are seen as faithful members who sacrificed everything for the Lord.

[_Seven]

I am curious as to how non LDS will perceive Mormonism now despite the positives and mainstreaming the church has worked so hard for. A non member friend watched the show & told my sister she felt "it makes Mormons look very bad."

All that PR work by GBH may have gone down the tubes.

[_TAK]

But even worse, the part that made me want to reach through the screen and THROTTLE that idiot of a widowed husband was when he said, "If I had to do it all over again, . . . I think. . . well, . . . I'd probably have to reconsider."

What kind of insensitive jerk would allow his wife to die all over again just to bring a kid he'd never met and hadn't even been concieved yet into the world? Kid #8 or whatever it was?

Well, he was in a no-win situation. If I understood correctly, the kid is still alive. How would you like your dad to say that he wished you were never born?

He lost either way.

The guy/story creeped me..
Frankly if I was #8 eight, I think I would understand..
But the real puke factor in my opinion was they felt there was an 8th child waiting for them ?!! - That is so Saturday's Warrior B***s***.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Overall I think it was one of the best pieces on Mormonism out there. There is more negative information available from other sources and there is more faith promoting information available from the church, but this was a great balanced summary of the main issues.

I think most everyone interviewed did a good job presenting their opinions. I even liked DCP. I have a feeling his real life persona is much different than the a-hole he plays on the internet. I liked Givens and Jensen from the TBM side. And although TBMs are complaining about Bachman, Quinn, and Toscano, I thought they did a great job for the critics. All the nevermoes did good. Sarah Baringer Gordon's intensity bugged me a bit, but after a while I got used to her. Even Boyd K. Packer came across as a grandfatherly figure, even though he was defending his outrageous teachings. The way he chuckled and asked, "Did I really say that?" makes me think he may be softening in his old age. The only person I can think of that came across looking bad was Dallin Oaks. What a prick.

[_Brackite]

My overall brief one sentence thought on the program.

It showed what the LDS church really is: A man made religion that satisfies certain individuals' spiritual needs, and does some good things in the process.

Hi There Who Knows,

This is a really Good Observation and Point.

[_moksha]

Holladay, Utah: I apppreciated the incredible amount of work that must have involved creating this insightful and unbiased documentary. I was particularly touched by the personal stories of those who are the victims of a sometimes hard and rigid culture. Perhaps we as members of the Church will remember that it is more important love than to judge and shun.

Helen Whitney: Arguably, yours is one of the most moving tributes to our documentary. If your response is similar to others, then we truly have created an important work

I like this exchange of this talk today with Helen Whitney at the Washington Post Online.

[_silentkid]

I really enjoyed Act 3 of the second half. It validated how I have felt about the church's position regarding intellectualism. It made the church look oppressive and dogmatic (especially Toscano's recounting of her excommunication). Dallin Oaks' quote about criticism was priceless. The whole part about the guy who lost his wife in childbirth while electing to go against medical suggestions to have an eighth child broke my heart. My mom went through a similar situation, though she survived...barely. After her fifth child, the doctors told her another pregnancy would most likely kill her and luckily, she followed their advice. The myth that there are spirit children still waiting to be born into good Mormon families puts unwarranted pressure on LDS couples to have children. Oh, the consequences of faith.