Anti-gays MISREAD Bible...

[_Sam Harris]

Gaz, I'll give you my life savings if you can unequivocably prove your truth to be true.

And why were you baptised? Why did you go to the Temple?

Because I was young, lonely, in pain, and impressionable. I doubted God, and two clean-cut young boys came into my home and promised me happiness through their faith.

It wasn't until later that I realized the price I would have to pay my dear: Myself, and who God made me to be.

I'm still young, there are times when I'm lonely, I'm in pain right now, but I'm not as impressionable. I don't doubt God anymore, because there's this force for good, this constant inside of me, and I believe that is God living within me.

I do not take the time to judge another's religious path and say it is wrong. Until the fundie Christians come up with complete and irrevocable empirical evidence that being gay is a choice, I'll continue to mock them as they mock homosexuals.

I have morals, Gaz. Things do make me mad that I percieve to be wrong. But I'm just one person who few listen to. More people stand up and notice when you quietly live your life the right way than they do when you stand up and shout. The world is noisy, dear.

There have been situations that I've been in where people have been struck with guilt because of the way they treated me and others...why? Because I never yelled, I never opened my mouth to condemn. I just shut up and did what was right.

Edit: Oh, and I went to the temple because that was what all righteous LDS did. That's what I was taught, and I thought that once I went to the temple, I wouldn't be seen by the male LDS population as a harlot anymore because of my convert status and questionable past. LOL, that didn't work. But the temple was still a peaceful place. Difference is nowadays I can tap into that wherever I am if need be. I don't need a recommend, I don't need anyone to interview me and see how worthy I am. God is with me. God is my refuge. That is all I need.

[_Jersey Girl]

GIMR

Can you scientifically prove that being gay is a choice?

GIMR, science has yet to prove otherwise.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Okay, Roger...until I drum up the scripture ref. I'll go at it stone cold since I've made a little hobby of this topic...

In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

The context indicates that what Paul is describing is Pagan temple prostitution. There was also a Greco-Roman cultural practice that involved a type of social mentoring of young males by older males wherein there was some same-sex sexual involvement....this involved heterosexual males.

Jersey Girl

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR

Can you scientifically prove that being gay is a choice?

GIMR, science has yet to prove otherwise.

Jersey Girl

Hey Jersey Girl,

That's exactly why I asked Gaz. I think the biggest problem with this issue and Christianity that I have is that in this day and age, fundie Christians only want to use the Bible (and apparently, looking at your second post, incorrectly most of the time) to back them. Are we in Tudor England or are we living in 2007? Are we going to eschew knowledge because it doesn't fall in line with the way we want to oppress people, or are we going to move forward?

[_Jersey Girl]

GIMR

Can you scientifically prove that being gay is a choice?

GIMR, science has yet to prove otherwise.

Jersey Girl

Hey Jersey Girl,

That's exactly why I asked Gaz. I think the biggest problem with this issue and Christianity that I have is that in this day and age, fundie Christians only want to use the Bible (and apparently, looking at your second post, incorrectly most of the time) to back them. Are we in Tudor England or are we living in 2007? Are we going to eschew knowledge because it doesn't fall in line with the way we want to oppress people, or are we going to move forward?

Sorry, GIMR, I wrote that reply when I was half asleep. I meant to say that science has yet to prove that being gay IS a choice. Well, something like that...

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Oh good grief, I must be incoherent.

There is no indication from science that being gay isn't a choice. No gay gene and all that jazz.

Jersey Girl

[_Gazelam]

GIMR,
Then your conversion had nothing to do with a witness of the spirit? Are you saying that you only got baptised because you thought you needed company?

Homosexual activity is a breaking of the law of chastity. It is unatural affection (2 Tim 3:3) and it is contrary to the entire plan of salvation, seperating mankind from a true understanding of the nature of God.

God set the example for us when he married Adam and Eve in the Garden as two immortal beings, death having not yet entered the world. This was the example set of the desired relationship between all mankind, that an understanding of the eternities might be aquired and the true potential of the soul coiuld be understood.

Sexual immorality of any kind is debaseing and damning. Homosexual activity is an extreme in this regard.

Gaz

[_richardMdBorn]

See, folks like Richard are exactly why many don't want to call themselves Christian, and why I refused to for so long.

Christianity isn't supposed to be about telling others what to do. One of the most serious things Paul says is "watch me". That's in Philippians 3:17. Richard, unless your life is so spotless that you can say that, you need to sit down and be quiet. I prefer an authentic faith over an authoritative one.

Richard Since you're writing quite a bit, by your own standard your life must be spotless. Are you so sensitive that you need to insist that those who disagree with you stop posting? Or do you want to interact with those who disagree with you? I prefer the latter. You appear to uncomfortable with letting others disagree with you..

Richard, you can quote the New Testament (so can most fundies and legalists), but are you telling me that science is to be ignored? Can you scientifically prove that being gay is a choice? Or are you just thumping that Bible?

I don't assert that having gay inclinations is sinful. I assert that acting on them is sinful. A supposed gay gene is irrelevant here.

Richard Throwing insults is generally a sign that you're losing the argument.

GIMR LOL! It's pathetic that you feel the need to have one.

Richard It's pathetic that that's your style of argumentation.

[_Roger Morrison]

Okay, Roger...until I drum up the scripture ref. I'll go at it stone cold since I've made a little hobby of this topic...

In the passage of Romans that Williams referred to in Monday's speech, Paul said people who forgot God's words fell into sin. "Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion," Paul wrote.

The context indicates that what Paul is describing is Pagan temple prostitution. There was also a Greco-Roman cultural practice that involved a type of social mentoring of young males by older males wherein there was some same-sex sexual involvement....this involved heterosexual males.

Jersey Girl

That seems consistant with recorded history of those times... Among other practices and rituals used by ALL religious persuaisions of those, and other times that have since been set aside as superstitions, habits of ignorance, and cultural traditions...

I think THE thing of importance however, from scripture, (Paul's in this case) is THE principle of not judging others--to their condemnation. And worse in doing so, to deny those so judged their birth-right of access to unprejudiced choice of opportunities of residence, employment, association, education, religion, etc...

Such discriminatory practices are carry-overs of, or throw-backs to, times of darkness, ignorance and fear. They are unbecoming followers of Jesus the Christ... Unfortunately, such casting of stones dies hard amongst unconscienced fundamentalist--whether in churches or not...

If we could look in the heterosexual community and find no "sexual immorality" ie adultery, incest, prostitution, pedaphilia, spousal/child abuse, debauchery, etc... but to see such exclusively within the homosexual community, then there might be some justification for homophobic anxieties...

Best to begin in the hetero world where THEY DO HAVE CHOICE OF CONDUCT, where 'sex-bads' are most obvious, IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger

[_Sam Harris]

GIMR,
Then your conversion had nothing to do with a witness of the spirit? Are you saying that you only got baptised because you thought you needed company?

Homosexual activity is a breaking of the law of chastity. It is unatural affection (2 Tim 3:3) and it is contrary to the entire plan of salvation, seperating mankind from a true understanding of the nature of God.

God set the example for us when he married Adam and Eve in the Garden as two immortal beings, death having not yet entered the world. This was the example set of the desired relationship between all mankind, that an understanding of the eternities might be aquired and the true potential of the soul coiuld be understood.

Sexual immorality of any kind is debaseing and damning. Homosexual activity is an extreme in this regard.

Gaz

Gaz, in light of what I went through in those five years, I do not think that God had nothing to do with the time that I spent as an LDS. However, I do think that many people use religion as a form of meeting their tribal needs. And those who say they don't, that the community means nothing to them are liars. Christ himself asked us to be in community.

I wanted to be loved, and I figured that people who had God on their side would know what that was, and be able to teach me.

I do not have problems with homosexuality. I have problems with lust, and that can be done in a homosexual and a heterosexual context. It troubles me that when people think of gays, they only think of lust. There's love there, Gaz. Just because our country is at its vain base still puritannical about stupid sh*t, and refuses the right of marriage to gay people, that doesn't make being gay wrong...or a choice.

Let me tell you a story of my first encounter with gay people, and maybe this will help you understand why I think the way do.

I was over at the house of some family friends. They were adults to my 12 years, but I loved being around them. I was spending the saturday with them. They had two friends over, two very nice women with two litte girls. My female friend (who was kind of like a mom to me) took me aside and explained to me that they were lesbian. She explained to me what lesbians were. I'm still young and know nothing about the world, so I pretty much accepted what she'd told me. No one ever taught me to look at people and hate them straight off. And growing up I was the recipient of much peer-abuse, so I didn't really like picking on random folks.

The little girls were both under the age of 4. It turns out that one had been adopted by this couple, and they were seeking to adopt the other. I played in the pool with the babies, and listened to the adults talk about how hard it was for gay couples to adopt in Virginia (this was 1993). I also learned over the course of that afternoon that those two girls were children of crackheads. One could even remember what it was like living in that hell, and she would tell her "new mama" about it as she rocked her to sleep at night.

Since gay people are just lustful individuals who think about nothing other than the next orgasm, tell me this: If there were no choice other than the gay couple and the crackhead parents, where should these babies have gone to be raised? They're babies, Gaz. You mean being a crackhead is better than being loved by two mothers?