TBMs and MMM

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_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Nehor:
Because the LDS Church has within it many if not the majority of the most contemptible, vilest people on the planet


Back that up a minute, pard. The church has many if not the majority of the most contemptible vilest people on the planet?

Even I don't hate Mormons that much!

Seriously, I don't that that's remotely true. I doubt a list of "the most vile" no matter who composes it would contain one, if any Mormons.

I don't know if I'm more confuse or disturbed by your statement. Granted PP's post was hyperbolic, but no need to pile more on!
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

Good grief, is there a way to edit my garbled posts after I over hastily hit "submit?"

Maybe you can make my point out, nonetheless, Nehor. The same holds for "many if not the majority of the best people on earth."
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

But back to beastie's original question.

In this case I think its BY metonymic relation to the church as a whole. Why BY and not "old testament prophets?" Within Mormonism, Joseph Smith and BY are objects of much more devotion and veneration than any other prophets of any other times. Especially in Utah, BY looms large, and this is where most of the objections are coming from.

Plus, the whole incident is layered in and overdetermined by personal histories and family identifications as well--again within Utah.

Those are some of the reasons why the topic is still such a flashpoint. But, I admit its not all. Its not nearly enough to account for the foul recycling of smears against the families of the Fancher party. Reading through reactions to the PBS documentary, I encountered comment after comment like this: "What about the documented threats from that company to come back from California to destroy the Mormons?" Stories like that have no validity and never have. Juanita Brooks and those who have written after her make that clear, as did early work by Josiah Gibbs and others. One can even go back to the first investigations (Major Carleton's report is always interesting reading) to see how long ago such stories were dismissed.

And yet they persist.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Nehor -

The point isn't whether or not Mormonism or any other religious system has people capable of mass murder within its ranks. The point is that these mass murderers clearly believed that they were doing a religious duty, and that was obvious enough that BY sent a letter (too late) saying "let the settlers pass in peace" (paraphrasing) It's not debated that he sent this letter. What is debated is exactly what he meant by the letter and why he sent it so late.

Why would BY feel the need to order his people not to commit mass murder? That's the question, isn't it?

I don't think it's clear that BY ordered the mass murder. I think it's clear he ordered harassment of settlers and stealing their possessions, and not trading with them. All of this could easily result in murder, which it did in this case. Settlers were going to be armed and were going to protect their possessions, on which their lives literally depended. The problem in MMM was that the Fancher party could probably report that Mormons were involved in these actions, not just Indians. The message BY wanted to send the federal gov't wasn't that Mormons were going to kill people traveling through their borders, but that church leaders had enough influence over the Indians that the Indians would kill people traveling through their borders unless church leaders restrained them. If the federal gov't continued harassing the Mormons, BY would stop restraining the Indians.

This desire of BY to send this message to the feds, combined with the extraordinary violent rhetoric of the leaders and the intense religious reformation of the period is the match that lit the fire.

Also not disputed is the fact that local religious leaders ordered the mass murder.

Now why would local religious leaders, who clearly were active, devout Mormons else they would not have been called as leaders - order a mass murder and feel it was religiously justified?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

But back to beastie's original question.

In this case I think its BY metonymic relation to the church as a whole. Why BY and not "old testament prophets?" Within Mormonism, Joseph Smith and BY are objects of much more devotion and veneration than any other prophets of any other times. Especially in Utah, BY looms large, and this is where most of the objections are coming from.

Plus, the whole incident is layered in and overdetermined by personal histories and family identifications as well--again within Utah.

Those are some of the reasons why the topic is still such a flashpoint. But, I admit its not all. Its not nearly enough to account for the foul recycling of smears against the families of the Fancher party. Reading through reactions to the PBS documentary, I encountered comment after comment like this: "What about the documented threats from that company to come back from California to destroy the Mormons?" Stories like that have no validity and never have. Juanita Brooks and those who have written after her make that clear, as did early work by Josiah Gibbs and others. One can even go back to the first investigations (Major Carleton's report is always interesting reading) to see how long ago such stories were dismissed.

And yet they persist.


First, literally every time I've seen this topic discussed by believers, the smears are resurrected. It doesn't matter how many times this has been debunked as retroactive accusations without any basis in reality, there will always be TBMs who still believe this trash. Pahoran, in particular, can be relied upon to resurrect this slander every time he participates on a MMM thread.

I do believe the reaction of TBMs to MMM has to do with their reverence towards BY and Joseph Smith, and with the fact that TBMs do possess the normal moral reactions of other people, and have to deliberately work to neuter those normal reactions when forced to.

That's an awkward sentence so I'm going to try to clarify with another example.

TBMs, like the vast majority of other human beings, have an instinctively negative moral reaction to the idea of a man "taking" other men's wives - whether to simply have an affair, or to induce them to leave their husband for himself. And yet apologists vigorously defend Joseph Smith' behavior on this point. They have been forced to because the evidence is overwhelming on this point. So, because they are True Believers in the Eric Hoffer sense of the word - people whose entire identities are so bound up in their belief system that it is far too threatening to stop believing so any amount of mental gymnastics will be engaged in to enable belief to continue - they have "neutered" their normal moral reactions and constructed an apologetic defense of his behavior.

In the same way they would construct an apologetic devise to enable them to continue believing if the evidence that BY actually ORDERED MMM was just as overwhelming.

What I think this demonstrates is that the same people peddling this apologia are only convinced by it because they have to be. Otherwise, they would offer this sort of defense before being forced to.

Each and every time the apologists have constructed defenses against the most controversial aspects of Mormon history - Joseph Smith' treasure digging, his polyandry - before the overwhelming evidence was clear, the same apologists would argue vociferously against the possibility that the event even occurred - just like they do today with BY's involvement in MMM. Remember back in the day when a notable apologist - I believe it was Nibley - said that if real evidence came out that Joseph Smith had been convicted of money digging it would be devastating for church claims? And yet when that evidence was, indeed, discovered, apologists simply constructed mental gymnastics to justify it.

Do any of us doubt that, if the evidence that BY ordered the massacre was indisputable, that apologists would construct explanations and defenses of the action?

The fact that they are not offering these musings when the evidence is not indisputable demonstrates that the future defenses are artificial constructs, designed not out of logic and moral reasoning, but out of necessity to salvage belief.

The fact that apologists weren't justifying Joseph Smith' polyandry and money digging before the evidence was clear and it was only a possibility demonstrates the same fact to me - that these defenses are not based out of logic and moral reasoning (which the apologists possessed and were using prior to the overwhelming evidence) - but simply out of necessity to salvage belief.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Jason Bourne
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Re: TBMs and MMM

Post by _Jason Bourne »

beastie wrote:Why do LDS believers protest so heartily against the idea of Brigham Young's complicity in MMM?

Let's say the evidence was incontrovertible, and BY really was involved in the planning of MMM, not just the cover up. Based on their past history, TBMs would just chalk it up to cultural influence and point to all the bad behavior of Biblical prophets to prove that God doesn't care too much about the characters of his vessels.


I think they just do not want to think the Prophet ordered the murder of innocents, especially women and children. I am sure if it was proved he ordered it that LDS would fine some reason to dismiss it as a sign he was not a prophet. But it sure would be a BIG PILL to swallow.
_SatanWasSetUp
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Re: TBMs and MMM

Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

beastie wrote:Why do LDS believers protest so heartily against the idea of Brigham Young's complicity in MMM?

Let's say the evidence was incontrovertible, and BY really was involved in the planning of MMM, not just the cover up. Based on their past history, TBMs would just chalk it up to cultural influence and point to all the bad behavior of Biblical prophets to prove that God doesn't care too much about the characters of his vessels.


This is their Plan B. If evidence finally turns up implicating Brigham Young, then the apologists and chapel Mormons will move to Plan B and claim Brigham Young was a fallible man, and besides, Biblical prophets committed much worse atrocities. You know as well as anyone that the apologists have a card to play for just about any issue. If Joseph Smith had never authored D&C 132, and polygamy remained a "rumor" I gurantee Mormons would deny the upper leadership ever practiced it. Only "renegade" Mormons practiced polygamy. That would be the story and that was the story for a long time until Joseph could no longer hide it. Then he moved to plan B and made it a revelation. Since there is evidence Joseph Smith was the mastermind behind polygamy, all of a sudden it is ordained by god. There is always an excuse.

Another example is the money digging issue. Brodie mentioned Joseph's "glass looking" trial in her biography and it was dismissed as an anti-mormon lie becaues there was no solid evidence. Once the evidence came to light, now Joseph's glass looking was "preparation" for his role as seer and translator.

Plan A is alway to deny until solid evidence shows up. Once the evidence shows up, they move to Plan B, which is come up with an excuse, any excuse that sounds plausible. BY's role in MM is still at the Plan A stage.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I think they just do not want to think the Prophet ordered the murder of innocents, especially women and children. I am sure if it was proved he ordered it that LDS would fine some reason to dismiss it as a sign he was not a prophet. But it sure would be a BIG PILL to swallow.


Yes, I agree. I think that it would cause some to lose faith, but there is a group of True Believers, and the apologists often seem to be of that category to me - who will continue to believe no matter what, and will simply find a reason to dismiss whatever the problem is.

Another example is the money digging issue. Brodie mentioned Joseph's "glass looking" trial in her biography and it was dismissed as an anti-mormon lie becaues there was no solid evidence. Once the evidence came to light, now Joseph's glass looking was "preparation" for his role as seer and translator.

Plan A is alway to deny until solid evidence shows up. Once the evidence shows up, they move to Plan B, which is come up with an excuse, any excuse that sounds plausible. BY's role in MM is still at the Plan A stage.


Exactly.

Speaking of which, does anyone have a reference for Hugh Nibley's statement that if evidence for Joseph Smith' treasure digging were found it would be a "death knell" for Mormonism?

The turn-around on that one has been remarkable. The same thing would happen if it were found BY ordered MMM.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:Nehor -

The point isn't whether or not Mormonism or any other religious system has people capable of mass murder within its ranks. The point is that these mass murderers clearly believed that they were doing a religious duty, and that was obvious enough that BY sent a letter (too late) saying "let the settlers pass in peace" (paraphrasing) It's not debated that he sent this letter. What is debated is exactly what he meant by the letter and why he sent it so late.

Why would BY feel the need to order his people not to commit mass murder? That's the question, isn't it?

I don't think it's clear that BY ordered the mass murder. I think it's clear he ordered harassment of settlers and stealing their possessions, and not trading with them. All of this could easily result in murder, which it did in this case. Settlers were going to be armed and were going to protect their possessions, on which their lives literally depended. The problem in MMM was that the Fancher party could probably report that Mormons were involved in these actions, not just Indians. The message BY wanted to send the federal gov't wasn't that Mormons were going to kill people traveling through their borders, but that church leaders had enough influence over the Indians that the Indians would kill people traveling through their borders unless church leaders restrained them. If the federal gov't continued harassing the Mormons, BY would stop restraining the Indians.

This desire of BY to send this message to the feds, combined with the extraordinary violent rhetoric of the leaders and the intense religious reformation of the period is the match that lit the fire.

Also not disputed is the fact that local religious leaders ordered the mass murder.

Now why would local religious leaders, who clearly were active, devout Mormons else they would not have been called as leaders - order a mass murder and feel it was religiously justified?


First, I don't agree that those local religous leaders are clearly active, devout Mormons.

Most mass murderers do what they do due to religous or quasi-religious beliefs. The human conscience revolts at the murder of other humans. The quickest way to get around that is to say that, "God Wills It!". Ashur made the Assyrians cruel, torturing monsters. Quetalcoatl wanted mass sacrifices so it was okay. "Kill a Gook for God." Every holy war is a declaration that God wants those people dead by any means necessary. The Nazi purge was quasi-religous, more than one church in Germany saw Hitler as a Messianic figure. If you listen to talk radio it seems clear to me that the war on terror is acquiring religious overtones.

I do not think Brigham Young was responsible. The man was a passionate speaker and sometimes his rhetoric was overblown. If you read what he said as a whole though instead of carefully nit-picking the man seems much more level-headed. I read the journals of those who knew him and do not see the monster others portray.
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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Blixa wrote:Nehor:
Because the LDS Church has within it many if not the majority of the most contemptible, vilest people on the planet


Back that up a minute, pard. The church has many if not the majority of the most contemptible vilest people on the planet?

Even I don't hate Mormons that much!

Seriously, I don't that that's remotely true. I doubt a list of "the most vile" no matter who composes it would contain one, if any Mormons.

I don't know if I'm more confuse or disturbed by your statement. Granted PP's post was hyperbolic, but no need to pile more on!


When I said most vile I should have been clear that I meant by God's standards, not mans. I thought I had said that. My apologies for the confusion.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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