Did juliann Contribute to an Apostasy?

[_Sam Harris]

So it had to do with the EVs? I was pretty anti EV (didn't know much about their theology, either...and it covers a very broad spectrum) when I left the church. I was actually surprised when I took a look at my faith later and found it to be Evangelical. But then again, EV covers a very broad spectrum.

I haven't followed Maggie, I don't look on Mad anymore, nothing much interests me there.

But do you not think that enough badgering by a belligerent apologist like Juliann could contribute to someone leaving the church?

Or do people just leave because of something they themselves did? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm asking an honest question.

At what point does a person's spiritual abuse warrant the person victim to it wanting to leave?

[_Sam Harris]

It's so easy to look at someone who is leaving the church and try to paint them as unstable, or say that their problems started long before they left. In telling my personal exit story, I've had folks state that I was mentally unstable, and that's why I couldn't stay.

When I went to FAIR, I had just come back to the church, and was trying to make it work. I went on there shortly after Moksha did, and in the beginning all was fine. But then I posted on some controversial threads (heaven forbid a black LDS should give her opinion on issues of race and culture in the church), and all of a sudden I was this huge problem.

Juliann extends her business card, www.blacklds.org , and I gently told her that this did nothing for the issues that I was having, as it just told about some black LDS in history, and didn't really face the day-to-day issues that people like me went through.

From that moment forward I was a race baiter.

Juliann made it a point to seek my posts out on the boards (she probably did it through looking at my posts from my profile), and she was deliberately nasty. I finally got tired. There were those who chimed in, and there were also many who tried to have honest dialogue, who were TBM. I still respect them for the discussions they tried to have.

Juliann even went and got another black LDS who had differing experiences than I did to post that, just so all the people who agreed with her that I was a troublemaker could go, "see? She doesn't have problems, why do you? Hmmmm...."

I cannot tell you how painful that year on FAIR was for me. All I wanted was to be a good Mormon girl. All I wanted was to make this work, because I bought into the hype that this was it. And it hurt like hell to exist in something that acted like it didn't want you, and to try so hard. I used to sit in Relief Society and wish I was anything, ANYTHING but a black woman.

And Juliann didn't help any.

Any discussion I posted on, any question I asked, there she was with her nastiness. And I do mean nastiness. That woman put such a bitter taste in my mouth. I finally gave up posting on FAIR, and I sat down and started thinking.

I had been inactive before, and only a handful of the hundreds of people who commented on my "pure spirit" actually stuck around and stayed my friend. They are still my friends today, and they love me for who I am, not what church I go to. I realized that my ward was full of Julianns, people who apparently needed to bully the questioning in order to boost their own testimonies. And that is what that woman does every day on that site. If you disagree with any tenet of the church, she's gonna be the monkey on your back.

I have a feeling many people have left quietly and decided that the church wasn't worth it after dealing with folks like Juliann. She's simply one of the online personifications of the extremist TBM. And heaven forbid you should bring that to her attention, oh no. She's all of a sudden so very rational and reasonable.

Makes you want to choke.

[_Mister Scratch]

I hate to agree with Juliann, but I think Maggie pretty much had her mind made up that she was leaving prior to ever showing up on that board.

I'm not so sure about that, Trin. I believe that MM's backstory involves her being on and off the FAIR/MAD board for something like two years. She has been doubting for some time, apparently, and I don't think it is going too far to say that juliann partially contributed to Maggie's apostasy. And as a TBM, this spells grave doom for juliann's salvation.

I have to add that I am absolutely entertained when someone claims that God told them not to be Mormon. It doesn't happen that someone is so bold to state such a thing. Talk about the most ultimate blow to the Mormon concept of revelation.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. If most exmos used this as their reasoning, what possible strategy would the Mopologists come up with?

[_Polygamy Porter]

Sweet Jebus!

I did this very thing several times back when it was the Fair litterbox.

Anyone remember yowzaa over there? I started out the same way as joepalmeto.

The fools who defend Mormonism in the MAAD litterbox are there for our amusement.

[_The Nehor]

I think she was on the way out when she first started posting. I remember her first postings.

She seemed dedicated to making changes in the food allergy procedures of the LDS Church. She wanted to change Church Policy by any means. Her attempts were rebuffed and she was annoyed. She came to the boards for support and was (in my opinion rightly) told that she has no business trying to make the changes she wanted to.

Her posts graduated to become small rants against some of her leaders and requests for explanations for things she had learned in EV Bible Study. I think Maggie wanted out but was afraid to leave. I think Juliann had as much to do with it as I did....which I hope was nothing.

[_moksha]

If anyone has contact with Maggie, could you let her know that she would be welcome over here. For some LDS like myself, it is easier to fit in where people are generally more accepting and less stringent about matters such as humor and asking questions. Perhaps this would benefit Maggie as well.

[_Who Knows]

Go post something on her blog.

edit - if that's possible. I'm not a 'blog' person myself.

[_Who Knows]

Oh, and how the hell do you go from Mormonism to EVism?

That's like leaving jonestown to join koresh. Well, ok, maybe not that bad. But you get my point.

[_Mister Scratch]

I think she was on the way out when she first started posting. I remember her first postings.

She seemed dedicated to making changes in the food allergy procedures of the LDS Church. She wanted to change Church Policy by any means. Her attempts were rebuffed and she was annoyed. She came to the boards for support and was (in my opinion rightly) told that she has no business trying to make the changes she wanted to.

Her posts graduated to become small rants against some of her leaders and requests for explanations for things she had learned in EV Bible Study. I think Maggie wanted out but was afraid to leave. I think Juliann had as much to do with it as I did....which I hope was nothing.

I don't know how familiar you are with juliann's habits on the aptly named MADboard, but she most definitely has a penchant for going after certain other posters. These other posters are unfailingly female. juliann seems to be one of those peculiar species of LDS women who harbors a special scorn for other women. As Beastie and Liz will gladly tell you, and as GIMR indicated above, this is nothing new. Maggie was simply the Wrong-headed Wench's latest target. Bullseye!

In any case, I doubt very much that you played any role in Maggie's apostasy, Nehor. After all, you were not hounding her and making snippy remarks to her left and right, unlike juliann.

[Anonymous]

I think she was on the way out when she first started posting. I remember her first postings.

She seemed dedicated to making changes in the food allergy procedures of the LDS Church. She wanted to change Church Policy by any means. Her attempts were rebuffed and she was annoyed. She came to the boards for support and was (in my opinion rightly) told that she has no business trying to make the changes she wanted to.

Her posts graduated to become small rants against some of her leaders and requests for explanations for things she had learned in EV Bible Study. I think Maggie wanted out but was afraid to leave. I think Juliann had as much to do with it as I did....which I hope was nothing.

I disagree. The majority of newbies that are LDS going to FAIR/MAD for help, information etc. are desperate to save their testimony or they wouldn't be there. It is NORMAL they will be critical of the church if they have found their way to MAD. Something or someone has given them reason to doubt and they have most likely read some very negative history on the church before finding MAD. I have never personally spoken in person or online with someone who as you said "WANTED OUT, but was afraid to leave." Most people don't DESIRE to leave but are only trying to reconcile the true history with their testimony based on the sanitized version.

You see it a hundred times on MAD. A newbie comes in and is pounced on by rabid aplogists and TBMs who declare it must be a troll. They won't show any compassion or understanding for how hard and painful it is to have that world you once knew destroyed. Oh, how I used to wish I could unknow what I knew and go back to my Chapel Mormon days. Ignorance was truly bliss. If that person turned out to be a troll, so what? What harm did it cause by being nice and compassionate to them? Most TBMs on that board are only interested in fighting with exMos to strengthen their own beliefs, and not in helping the newbie doubter who has just had their world come crashing down.

Until apologists and TBMs learn to be understanding of this painful stage, they will never help anybody on that discussion board and only drive them to those who will. (exMos) I really appreciate the guy running the "Mormon Stories" website because he is a TBM who is really trying to show compassion and love for those struggling with the new information.