Prayer perspective...

[_Gazelam]

When I was on my mission, I got invited in to a Indian (not American) home, or maybe they were Pakistani. They had a religious leader in their living room in his silk clothing sitting on a large pillow on the floor.

We went into a first discussion and started with the question of what his idea of God was.

He went into some shpeal about how God was like an ocean of conciousness in the universe, and that when we die our desire should be to add our conciousness into this ocean and become one with it.

Your desire to Love all of mankind and encourage peace is a great and wonderful thing, but your way way off base as far as the nature of the human soul and the nature of God.

What was the final straw that threw you so far off coarce? What changed your perception?

[_harmony]

When I was on my mission, I got invited in to a Indian (not American) home, or maybe they were Pakistani. They had a religious leader in their living room in his silk clothing sitting on a large pillow on the floor.

We went into a first discussion and started with the question of what his idea of God was.

He went into some shpeal about how God was like an ocean of conciousness in the universe, and that when we die our desire should be to add our conciousness into this ocean and become one with it.

Your desire to Love all of mankind and encourage peace is a great and wonderful thing, but your way way off base as far as the nature of the human soul and the nature of God.

What was the final straw that threw you so far off coarce? What changed your perception?

What makes you think you're right and Roger's wrong, Gaz?

[_Gazelam]

Prayer is not getting on your knees, it's opening your heart. Which is why I get frustrated in my belief system at times, because they keep going on and on about having a "prayer life". To them, that is getting on your knees every night and praying. But to me, sometimes that is just meaningless chatter. The Dialogue goes on constantly, just because I don't put words in my mouth doesn't mean it isn't happening.

When the angels came to Adam to teach him about the coming of Christ and redemption one of the things they taught him was how to pray.

You are correct in that we should always be in a state of prayer, but when it comes to our daily proper prayer, be it bedtime or morning or whenever we set aside time to properly approach God in true prayer, it should be on our knees, head bowed, arms folded, and vocal. Not leaning on the edge of the bed.

Now I understand that someone like Harmony cannot get down on her knees, and I have no question that God makes allowances for that. But for those of us who are able, there is a patern set.

And that pattern was taught to us by God himself through his angels.

[_moksha]

He went into some spiel about how God was like an ocean of consciousness in the universe, and that when we die our desire should be to add our consciousness into this ocean and become one with it.

Strangely enough, you are describing the state of Moksha, when one is free from the endless cycle of rebirth. Did you tell him he should get a burning in his bosom instead?

[_Gazelam]

Well common sence for one. That an individuals conciousness should be diluted and lost in the great conciousness of a higher being is degradeing and is in no way suggestive of the divine nature of the human spirit.

Energy is not created or made, and the human spirit is eternal. All of the Gospel of Jesus Christ seeks to build and improve the divine spirit that is in us all. The plan of salvation seeks to infuse us with an eternal and virtueous culture that is crative and constructive.

Merely because the mesasge is often misconstrued and used as a club against the unintelligent in history, is no reason to discard the gospel as Roger has done.

And don't give me that song and dance Roger about how oyu don't reject the gospel. As it is well stated in various places on this board and others, the gospel is not here as a cafeteria. Either accept it or reject it, but your universal humanist preaching is way off base with the gospel of Christ as wel as the divine nature of the human spirit.

[_cacheman]

He went into some spiel about how God was like an ocean of consciousness in the universe, and that when we die our desire should be to add our consciousness into this ocean and become one with it.

This is actually right along the lines of what I believe.

That an individuals conciousness should be diluted and lost in the great conciousness of a higher being is degradeing and is in no way suggestive of the divine nature of the human spirit.

When you say it that way, I can see how it could be interpreted as degrading. It might help to think of it as oneness rather than noneness. When you think about it, you can find some commonalities in this type of belief with the LDS beliefs of the sealing power and the potential for divinity.

cacheman

[_The Nehor]

When the angels came to Adam to teach him about the coming of Christ and redemption one of the things they taught him was how to pray.

You are correct in that we should always be in a state of prayer, but when it comes to our daily proper prayer, be it bedtime or morning or whenever we set aside time to properly approach God in true prayer, it should be on our knees, head bowed, arms folded, and vocal. Not leaning on the edge of the bed.

Where's a scriptural source for that? It doesn't fit the Temple either.

[_Sam Harris]

Prayer is not getting on your knees, it's opening your heart. Which is why I get frustrated in my belief system at times, because they keep going on and on about having a "prayer life". To them, that is getting on your knees every night and praying. But to me, sometimes that is just meaningless chatter. The Dialogue goes on constantly, just because I don't put words in my mouth doesn't mean it isn't happening.

When the angels came to Adam to teach him about the coming of Christ and redemption one of the things they taught him was how to pray.

You are correct in that we should always be in a state of prayer, but when it comes to our daily proper prayer, be it bedtime or morning or whenever we set aside time to properly approach God in true prayer, it should be on our knees, head bowed, arms folded, and vocal. Not leaning on the edge of the bed.

Now I understand that someone like Harmony cannot get down on her knees, and I have no question that God makes allowances for that. But for those of us who are able, there is a patern set.

And that pattern was taught to us by God himself through his angels.

I don't recall Christ saying anything about that when teaching the Lord's Prayer.

And I pray walking, lying down, running away from people who annoy me...

I have been given the impression that the stance of my heart is what's most important.

[_Gazelam]

From "Apocryphal Writings and Teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls":

Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world, knew that he could not save himself. So he called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon the holy and perfect name that he was able to establish the plan of life in the new world, says the Second Coptic Gnostic Work.161

This source gives the secret words of prayer (they differ from text to text): I-oy-el I-oy-el Io-i-a, which is interpreted as "God is with us forever and ever, and through the power of revelation."162 This prayer of Adam when he calls upon the Lord has different interpretations in different works, but it's always recorded in a special code, and it's mentioned many times. One of the first things the Lord told Adam and Eve was that they should always call upon God, in whatever they did, in the name of the Son. In the same way, Abraham, in the Apocalypse of Abraham, when he makes the first offering, called upon God, saying, "El, El, El! El Ya-O-El!," meaning, "God receive my prayer! Let my offering be acceptable!"163 The angel came and taught him the proper order of prayer, which was made according to the command "that I should sacrifice and seek thee." "Show me, teach me, give light and knowledge to thy servant according as thou hast promised." So Abraham called upon God as Adam did, and as a result an angel visited him and gave him knowledge. Then we're told what he received.164

When Adam, being greatly downcast, appeals for aid against Satan (who is more than a match for him), God tells the angel Muriel, "Go down to the man Adam and instruct him in my doctrine." The Apocryphon of John says, "A messenger went down and awakened Adam and showed him how to keep himself pure against the day of another visitation."165 In some versions, Adam is awakened from his sleep by three men whom he does not recognize. As he is talking to them, the Lord himself appears and asks Adam, "Why are you so sorrowful?" He is sorrowful because he is doomed, he says. The Lord promises him that "if he hearkens to the angels, they will teach him and his posterity the Gospel."

It was by establishing ordinances, says the Gospel of Philip, that Christ completed what Adam began. Adam and others prayed to God and asked him to give them the rules to attain the promises. So he gave them ordinances, decrees, commandments, and instructions, establishing places of preparation and transition, etc.166 Adam received the teachings, the ordinances, and the seals of all the Powers above and below, the Kephalaia says. The Berlin Papyrus says that at their new birth, Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the gospel to him.167 The helper came and awakened the Lord of Mysteries, who is Adam. For Adam went through all the ordinances, including baptism, washings, and anointings, says the Mandaean Prayerbook. According to the Ginza, the Lord and two companions taught Adam and Eve all the ordinances and blessed them. "The Great Light planted us here and gave us helpers who taught us the prayer of Adam in the world." Three angels were sent to teach Adam and Eve the law of chastity, to instruct them to be true and faithful when misfortune came upon them, and to dedicate all of their property to the needy and the poor—the rule which is binding upon all the elect. They were to call upon God without ceasing, in the name of the Son, and not to trust in the things of this world.168

One text says that these ordinances which Adam received in his dispensation have always been the same. They were taught to Adam and his posterity by three angels. His descendants were required to call upon God even as he had, and thereafter to do everything as he had done. Their treasure must be their good works, not gold and silver. They must teach the law of chastity to their children. The true baptism is the baptism of Adam, which was preached by John the Baptist. The three who were sent to Adam were called "the three who belong to the twelve, who were hidden within the veil of light." And in the Apocalypse of Abraham, Abraham is awakened by the Sent Ones, and their instructions to him and the ordinances exactly parallel those of Adam. Abraham says, "I arose and looked upon him that had taken me by the right hand, and he set me on my feet. . . . The hair of his head was like snow."169 It was the Savior himself.

Adam, you recall, had lost memory of his former existence. "I have caused a sleep to come over Adam," says the Abbatôn (a significant early writing of the apostles), "and a forgetting."170 Adam's sleep was the putting of a veil between him and his former knowledge. It enveloped him like a garment, and, while his memory was shut off by it, his epinoia (intelligence) retained its force. He remained smart, but he forgot everything. In fact, during the episode of the creation, Eve was made (not from a literal rib, according to this source) while Adam was in sort of a drugged stupor, his mind separated by a veil from what was really going on.171 He is aroused, then, and taught ordinances. He is the double for Michael, for Adam is Michael. Adam is Michael throughout these writings; it's a common theme.

For some reason, the ordinances are vital. They are not mere forms or symbols, they are analogues. Standing with the apostles in the prayer circle, the Lord tells them, "I will teach you all the ordinances necessary that you may be purged by degrees and progress in the next life."172 In many of these forty-day stories (and there are several), after the Lord is about to leave the apostles, he says, "I have taught you all these things. Now we will stand in a circle, and you will repeat after me this prayer, and we will go through all the ordinances again.173 This is repeated in 2 Jeu, which, as I say, Carl Schmidt regarded as the most important of all the early Christian writings. But standing with the apostles in the prayer circle, the Lord tells them, "I will teach you all of the ordinances necessary/ that you might be purged by degrees and progress in the next life. These things," he further explains, "make it possible for you to achieve other places (topoi), but they must be performed in this life. Unless one performs them here, he cannot become a 'Son of Light.'"174 All the texts, whether Syriac, Hebrew, Coptic, or Greek, always like the title "Sons of Light," meaning those who have received the ordinances of the temple. That's what the code name "Sons of Light" means, and it's used a great deal. The Lord explains in 2 Jeu what that name means: "By very definition, the 'Sons of Light' are those that are perfect in the ordinances."175 It is interesting that this same definition applies to the mysterious title Nazorean, which means the same thing. "Until Christ came," the Pistis Sophia explains, "no soul had gone through the ordinances in their completeness. It was he who opened the gates and the way of life."176 Those who received these ordinances are in the dispensations of the "'Sons of Light" in whatever age they lived, and they receive whatever they desire. They are those upon the right hand of the Father, for it is by their faithfulness in these things that they show they are worthy to return and inherit the kingdom. Without the ordinances, therefore, there is no foothold or foundation to anything in this life. If you want to go to the Father, says 1 Jeu, you must pass through the veil.177

161. Cf. Untitled Text 13, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 252.

162. Untitled Text 4, in, Ibid., 213; cf. Gospel of the Egyptians 3:5 in NHLE, 199; Trimorphic Protennoia 39, in NHLE, 464.

163. Apocalypse of Abraham 17:13, 20, in OTP 1:693–97.

164. Apocalypse of Abraham 17:5–21, in ibid., 1:697; cf. Hugh W. Nibley, "The Early Christian Prayer Circle," BYUS 19 (Fall 1978): 52, reprinted in CWHN 4:57.

165. Apocryphon of John 20:14–25, in NHLE, 110.

166. Gospel of Philip 55:5–25, in NHLE, 133.

167. Cf. Apocryphon of John 20:15–25, in NHLE, 110.

168. Lidzbarski, Ginza, 14–27.

169. Apocalypse of Abraham 11:1–2, in OTP 1:694.

170. "Discourse on Abbatôn," in Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms, 225–249,474–96.

171. Cf. Apocryphon of John 20:14–21:16; 22:20–21; 22:34–23:14, in NHLE, 110–11.

172. 2 Jeu 44, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 105.

173. Cf. 2 Jeu 42, in ibid., 99; Pistis Sophia IV, 136, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 353–54.

174. 2 Jeu 51, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 126; cf. Pistis Sophia III, 125, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 314–15.

175. 2 Jeu 51, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 126.

176. Pistis Sophia III, 135, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 350.

177. Cf. 1 Jeu 39, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 89. This subject is discussed generally throughout the whole text of the books of Jeu

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks GIMR, TD, Shmoe, Catcheman--nice to see you again, for your agreeing thoughts... Roger

Maybe these acts of terrorism can be diffused in ways of the miraculous.

Oh yes, that'll work! I'll bet Rumsfeld is shaking his head right now, wondering why he didn't think of that.

I'll start holding my breath. . . now.

This is a call to prayer.

Which, when it comes to terrorism, always works.

Doc, it isn't hard for me to understand your cynicism. Cynics make up a large portion of our human family, for whatever their reasons. Just the way it is.

That Rumsfeld could be touched by anything rationally conciliatory would be a surprise to me too...my time of cynicism. We tend to be composites of + & -, generally speaking...sometimes a healthy balance, other times not. Rumsie, IMSCO is not well balanced. Unfortunately his type have played significant, debilitating roles through history.

However, it is the hope of those who see the positive power of mind/intelligece/knowledge/psyche/spirituallity countering injustice, ignorance and barbarism that draws such thinking-feeling persons together as an alternate force and influence in the evolution of humanity...as i see it.

Which is not, to me, mystical or magic-like in any way. It is simply reordering elements in constructive patterns according to natural laws that are as yet not fully understood and implemented...

Gaz, you say, in which i'll interject in 'bold':

""""Merely because the mesasge is often misconstrued and used as a club against the unintelligent in history, is no reason to discard the gospel as Roger has done. Respectfully Bro, you are speaking in total ignorance of my understanding of "the gospel" or its place in my life. In doing so you discredit yourself far more than you know...

And don't give me that song and dance Roger about how oyu don't reject the gospel. I rejoice in "the good-news" as i understand it. That i don't read it as you do is simply a matter of interpretation. As it is well stated in various places on this board and others, the gospel is not here as a cafeteria. In the opinion of some... Either accept it or reject it, but your universal humanist preaching is way off base with the gospel of Christ in your opinion as wel as the divine nature of the human spirit.""""" As you currently understand it...


More Gaz,

Your desire to Love all of mankind and encourage peace is a great and wonderful thing, but your way way off base as far as the nature of the human soul and the nature of God.

What was the final straw that threw you so far off coarce? What changed your perception?

Gazelam
cacheman
Roger has stated that he has no belief in God. That is what I was getting at.

"...the nature of the human soul and the nature of God" are admittedly beyond being fully understood by me. How about you? However, i have subscribed to what i think "Jesus" taught concerning humankind and "God". Such a subscription serves "me" very well. As i continue to learn, and apply, i am even better served... "...line upon line...precepts...here a little..." ever learning, applying the glory of "God"...

IF you are asking, what threw me off "Mormomism"? An accumulation of "straws" (that generally throw me off wherever i encounter them): inconsitancy, irrelevance, irreverence, braggadocio, arrogance, ignorance, exclusivity, fundamentalism, litteralism, elitism, prejudice and discriminatory practices, (LDS) authoritarianism/Patriarchy... All of those over time out weighed the good feelings of the Spirit initially introduced by the Missionaries and experienced in the LDS community we were blessed to be a part of. "...all good things come to an end..."???

Gaz, will you please find "my" statement, "...no belief in God."?? Then, we can proceed further... Warm regards, Roger