Prayer perspective...

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_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:From "Apocryphal Writings and Teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls":

Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world, knew that he could not save himself. So he called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon the holy and perfect name that he was able to establish the plan of life in the new world, says the Second Coptic Gnostic Work.161

This source gives the secret words of prayer (they differ from text to text): I-oy-el I-oy-el Io-I-a, which is interpreted as "God is with us forever and ever, and through the power of revelation."162 This prayer of Adam when he calls upon the Lord has different interpretations in different works, but it's always recorded in a special code, and it's mentioned many times. One of the first things the Lord told Adam and Eve was that they should always call upon God, in whatever they did, in the name of the Son. In the same way, Abraham, in the Apocalypse of Abraham, when he makes the first offering, called upon God, saying, "El, El, El! El Ya-O-El!," meaning, "God receive my prayer! Let my offering be acceptable!"163 The angel came and taught him the proper order of prayer, which was made according to the command "that I should sacrifice and seek thee." "Show me, teach me, give light and knowledge to thy servant according as thou hast promised." So Abraham called upon God as Adam did, and as a result an angel visited him and gave him knowledge. Then we're told what he received.164

When Adam, being greatly downcast, appeals for aid against Satan (who is more than a match for him), God tells the angel Muriel, "Go down to the man Adam and instruct him in my doctrine." The Apocryphon of John says, "A messenger went down and awakened Adam and showed him how to keep himself pure against the day of another visitation."165 In some versions, Adam is awakened from his sleep by three men whom he does not recognize. As he is talking to them, the Lord himself appears and asks Adam, "Why are you so sorrowful?" He is sorrowful because he is doomed, he says. The Lord promises him that "if he hearkens to the angels, they will teach him and his posterity the Gospel."

It was by establishing ordinances, says the Gospel of Philip, that Christ completed what Adam began. Adam and others prayed to God and asked him to give them the rules to attain the promises. So he gave them ordinances, decrees, commandments, and instructions, establishing places of preparation and transition, etc.166 Adam received the teachings, the ordinances, and the seals of all the Powers above and below, the Kephalaia says. The Berlin Papyrus says that at their new birth, Adam and Eve received the seals and the tokens. As Adam stood praying and supplicating, God sent someone who came and gave him a greeting of peace (shalom), embraced him, and preached the gospel to him.167 The helper came and awakened the Lord of Mysteries, who is Adam. For Adam went through all the ordinances, including baptism, washings, and anointings, says the Mandaean Prayerbook. According to the Ginza, the Lord and two companions taught Adam and Eve all the ordinances and blessed them. "The Great Light planted us here and gave us helpers who taught us the prayer of Adam in the world." Three angels were sent to teach Adam and Eve the law of chastity, to instruct them to be true and faithful when misfortune came upon them, and to dedicate all of their property to the needy and the poor—the rule which is binding upon all the elect. They were to call upon God without ceasing, in the name of the Son, and not to trust in the things of this world.168

One text says that these ordinances which Adam received in his dispensation have always been the same. They were taught to Adam and his posterity by three angels. His descendants were required to call upon God even as he had, and thereafter to do everything as he had done. Their treasure must be their good works, not gold and silver. They must teach the law of chastity to their children. The true baptism is the baptism of Adam, which was preached by John the Baptist. The three who were sent to Adam were called "the three who belong to the twelve, who were hidden within the veil of light." And in the Apocalypse of Abraham, Abraham is awakened by the Sent Ones, and their instructions to him and the ordinances exactly parallel those of Adam. Abraham says, "I arose and looked upon him that had taken me by the right hand, and he set me on my feet. . . . The hair of his head was like snow."169 It was the Savior himself.

Adam, you recall, had lost memory of his former existence. "I have caused a sleep to come over Adam," says the Abbatôn (a significant early writing of the apostles), "and a forgetting."170 Adam's sleep was the putting of a veil between him and his former knowledge. It enveloped him like a garment, and, while his memory was shut off by it, his epinoia (intelligence) retained its force. He remained smart, but he forgot everything. In fact, during the episode of the creation, Eve was made (not from a literal rib, according to this source) while Adam was in sort of a drugged stupor, his mind separated by a veil from what was really going on.171 He is aroused, then, and taught ordinances. He is the double for Michael, for Adam is Michael. Adam is Michael throughout these writings; it's a common theme.

For some reason, the ordinances are vital. They are not mere forms or symbols, they are analogues. Standing with the apostles in the prayer circle, the Lord tells them, "I will teach you all the ordinances necessary that you may be purged by degrees and progress in the next life."172 In many of these forty-day stories (and there are several), after the Lord is about to leave the apostles, he says, "I have taught you all these things. Now we will stand in a circle, and you will repeat after me this prayer, and we will go through all the ordinances again.173 This is repeated in 2 Jeu, which, as I say, Carl Schmidt regarded as the most important of all the early Christian writings. But standing with the apostles in the prayer circle, the Lord tells them, "I will teach you all of the ordinances necessary/ that you might be purged by degrees and progress in the next life. These things," he further explains, "make it possible for you to achieve other places (topoi), but they must be performed in this life. Unless one performs them here, he cannot become a 'Son of Light.'"174 All the texts, whether Syriac, Hebrew, Coptic, or Greek, always like the title "Sons of Light," meaning those who have received the ordinances of the temple. That's what the code name "Sons of Light" means, and it's used a great deal. The Lord explains in 2 Jeu what that name means: "By very definition, the 'Sons of Light' are those that are perfect in the ordinances."175 It is interesting that this same definition applies to the mysterious title Nazorean, which means the same thing. "Until Christ came," the Pistis Sophia explains, "no soul had gone through the ordinances in their completeness. It was he who opened the gates and the way of life."176 Those who received these ordinances are in the dispensations of the "'Sons of Light" in whatever age they lived, and they receive whatever they desire. They are those upon the right hand of the Father, for it is by their faithfulness in these things that they show they are worthy to return and inherit the kingdom. Without the ordinances, therefore, there is no foothold or foundation to anything in this life. If you want to go to the Father, says 1 Jeu, you must pass through the veil.177


161. Cf. Untitled Text 13, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 252.

162. Untitled Text 4, in, Ibid., 213; cf. Gospel of the Egyptians 3:5 in NHLE, 199; Trimorphic Protennoia 39, in NHLE, 464.

163. Apocalypse of Abraham 17:13, 20, in OTP 1:693–97.

164. Apocalypse of Abraham 17:5–21, in ibid., 1:697; cf. Hugh W. Nibley, "The Early Christian Prayer Circle," BYUS 19 (Fall 1978): 52, reprinted in CWHN 4:57.

165. Apocryphon of John 20:14–25, in NHLE, 110.

166. Gospel of Philip 55:5–25, in NHLE, 133.

167. Cf. Apocryphon of John 20:15–25, in NHLE, 110.

168. Lidzbarski, Ginza, 14–27.

169. Apocalypse of Abraham 11:1–2, in OTP 1:694.

170. "Discourse on Abbatôn," in Budge, Coptic Martyrdoms, 225–249,474–96.

171. Cf. Apocryphon of John 20:14–21:16; 22:20–21; 22:34–23:14, in NHLE, 110–11.

172. 2 Jeu 44, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 105.

173. Cf. 2 Jeu 42, in ibid., 99; Pistis Sophia IV, 136, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 353–54.

174. 2 Jeu 51, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 126; cf. Pistis Sophia III, 125, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 314–15.

175. 2 Jeu 51, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 126.

176. Pistis Sophia III, 135, in Schmidt, Pistis Sophia, 350.

177. Cf. 1 Jeu 39, in Schmidt, Books of Jeu and the Untitled Text, 89. This subject is discussed generally throughout the whole text of the books of Jeu


Who wrote this analysis of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

GIMR wrote:
Gazelam wrote:From "Apocryphal Writings and Teachings of the Dead Sea Scrolls":

Adam, finding himself alone in the dreary world, knew that he could not save himself. So he called mightily upon God for a helper. It is because Adam received power to call upon the holy and perfect name that he was able to establish the plan of life in the new world, says the Second Coptic Gnostic Work.161

...snip....


Why should anyone care what these ancients said, Gaz? Why do you think these ancients carry weight?
_Gazelam
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GIMR

Post by _Gazelam »

Heres the source, I also have the book version:

http://farms.BYU.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=57
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Harmony

Post by _Gazelam »

When men speak about God, and across the reaches of time, whether they are Enoch or Paul or Gordon B Hinkley and their stories and doctrines not only match up, but support one another. Well that says something.

And when you imitate what they did in speaking to God and receiving answers, and it works. Well that says something also doesent it?

It worked for me, and my question was whether or not I was in his church.

It worked for a number of my investigators on my mission, who received revelation by following Mormonis promise.

Further records of revelation and miriacles are found in missionaries testimonies from around the world, and in the records of mission presidents that they all give upon their return home.

From Adam to me, the plan of salvation is unchanged. The way to receive revelation is unchanged.

Next time you accompany your husband to the Temple, see if you can wait for him in the celestial room instad of the foyer, and spend your time in prayer. Or better yet, next time your home alone, bow your head and fold your arms and offer up a vocal prayer, first giving thanks to all that you recognize God has given you, and after this, ask a distinct yes or no question. Such as "Is Gordon B. Hinkley a true prophet?".

See what happens, and be sincere in asking. Be prepared to make a change in your life if the answer is yes.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Gazelam
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Roger

Post by _Gazelam »

Gaz, will you please find "my" statement, "...no belief in God."?? Then, we can proceed further... Warm regards, Roger



Perhaps I was wrong in claiming that you have ever actually stated it outright, but I get the feeling that you imply it when I read your posts.

In going through some of your old posts in an effort to back up my statement, I see that you do have some belief in a "GOD", but it seems that you don't believe in any particular testimony that a prophet has given. Your "choosy" in what testimony you accept by the prophets.

So I guess I need to recant that you have no belief in God.

Could you please share your testimony regarding God as oyu see him?

Thanks

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_harmony
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Re: Harmony

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:When men speak about God, and across the reaches of time, whether they are Enoch or Paul or Gordon B Hinkley and their stories and doctrines not only match up, but support one another. Well that says something.


In what way do you think the stories match up and support one another?

And when you imitate what they did in speaking to God and receiving answers, and it works. Well that says something also doesent it?


And, all things being equal, what about all the people who imitate what they did, and they don't receive the same answer? Or they don't receive an answer at all? Or what if it doesn't work? What does that say?

It worked for me, and my question was whether or not I was in his church.


So what? What about the millions of people who have sincerely prayed, and received a different answer than you?

It worked for a number of my investigators on my mission, who received revelation by following Mormonis promise.


Again, so what? There are millions of people who did the same things, with the same worthiness, and received different, or no answer. What about them?

Further records of revelation and miriacles are found in missionaries testimonies from around the world, and in the records of mission presidents that they all give upon their return home.


Again, so what? I find that unconvincing, Gaz. And the reason I find that unconvincing is because it isn't consistent. I don't think it matters to God what church any of his children join, as long as they live as he would have them live. An atheist who lives a good honorable life has no less opportunity than the LDS person who lives a good honorable life. God is no respector of persons, Gaz. If it were not so, he would cease to be God.

From Adam to me, the plan of salvation is unchanged. The way to receive revelation is unchanged.


But you aren't talking about the plan of salvation, Gaz. You aren't even talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ. You're talking about a small sect's ideas which may or may not be any more on-target than anyone else's. Try to not get all big-headed about the church, Gaz. The doctrine is not perfect, is not complete, is not finished. That's the reason for continuing revelation.

Next time you accompany your husband to the Temple, see if you can wait for him in the celestial room instad of the foyer, and spend your time in prayer. Or better yet, next time your home alone, bow your head and fold your arms and offer up a vocal prayer, first giving thanks to all that you recognize God has given you, and after this, ask a distinct yes or no question. Such as "Is Gordon B. Hinkley a true prophet?".

See what happens, and be sincere in asking. Be prepared to make a change in your life if the answer is yes.

Gaz


What makes you think I don't already do that, Gaz? And what makes you think God answers me any differently than with the truth?

I want to know why you think the ancients knew God better than anyone now?
_Gazelam
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Harmony

Post by _Gazelam »

Again, so what? I find that unconvincing, Gaz. And the reason I find that unconvincing is because it isn't consistent. I don't think it matters to God what church any of his children join, as long as they live as he would have them live. An atheist who lives a good honorable life has no less opportunity than the LDS person who lives a good honorable life. God is no respector of persons, Gaz. If it were not so, he would cease to be God.


Lets narrow this down a little. Is God a God of confusion or order? Are we to think that there is a different plan of salvation for one group of people than for another?

Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah whos name we have to be sealed to, or is following Mohammed just as sanctifying?

What your talking about is covered a little in Romans chp.2: 11-15. That being said, the purpose of the gospel is to enhance and strengthen that nature, and to focus it. That part is covered in D&C 88. The whole section is great in regards to understanding laws of God, but for the purpose of this discussion, lets just read 11-42.

Take a peek at both these scriptures, and share your opinion with me.

thanks

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Sam Harris
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Re: Harmony

Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:When men speak about God, and across the reaches of time, whether they are Enoch or Paul or Gordon B Hinkley and their stories and doctrines not only match up, but support one another. Well that says something.

And when you imitate what they did in speaking to God and receiving answers, and it works. Well that says something also doesent it?

It worked for me, and my question was whether or not I was in his church.

It worked for a number of my investigators on my mission, who received revelation by following Mormonis promise.

Further records of revelation and miriacles are found in missionaries testimonies from around the world, and in the records of mission presidents that they all give upon their return home.

From Adam to me, the plan of salvation is unchanged. The way to receive revelation is unchanged.

Next time you accompany your husband to the Temple, see if you can wait for him in the celestial room instad of the foyer, and spend your time in prayer. Or better yet, next time your home alone, bow your head and fold your arms and offer up a vocal prayer, first giving thanks to all that you recognize God has given you, and after this, ask a distinct yes or no question. Such as "Is Gordon B. Hinkley a true prophet?".

See what happens, and be sincere in asking. Be prepared to make a change in your life if the answer is yes.

Gaz



Gaz, anyone can say something to give themselves power and support their claims.

I still don't see how that dictates what posture my body should be in when praying.

What about the heart?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_harmony
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Re: Harmony

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:
Again, so what? I find that unconvincing, Gaz. And the reason I find that unconvincing is because it isn't consistent. I don't think it matters to God what church any of his children join, as long as they live as he would have them live. An atheist who lives a good honorable life has no less opportunity than the LDS person who lives a good honorable life. God is no respector of persons, Gaz. If it were not so, he would cease to be God.


Lets narrow this down a little. Is God a God of confusion or order? Are we to think that there is a different plan of salvation for one group of people than for another?

Is Jesus Christ the promised Messiah whos name we have to be sealed to, or is following Mohammed just as sanctifying?


You aren't talking about Jesus Christ, Gaz. Not his gospel nor the Christ himself. You're talking about prophets. Try to not confuse the two.

What your talking about is covered a little in Romans chp.2: 11-15.


Who wrote Romans, Gaz? Paul, if I remember right. And Paul is one of those ancients that I do not accept without reservation.

That being said, the purpose of the gospel is to enhance and strengthen that nature, and to focus it. That part is covered in D&C 88. The whole section is great in regards to understanding laws of God, but for the purpose of this discussion, lets just read 11-42.


And who wrote D&C 88, Gaz? Joseph Smith, if I remember right. And Joseph is one of those modern prophets that I do not accept without reservation.

And why is that, Gaz? Because I trust my own personal revelation, based on my own personal relationship with God, far more than I trust either ancient men or modern ones. So try again.

We can discuss the gospel of Jesus Christ, as far as it is recorded correctly. Or we can discuss the nature of God himself, as far as it is recorded correctly. But we have to discuss everything with the idea that none of it may be exactly correct. Because the doctrine of that we have to trust the prophets, ancient or modern, is just too far off the map for me.
_Sam Harris
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Re: Roger

Post by _Sam Harris »

Gazelam wrote:
Gaz, will you please find "my" statement, "...no belief in God."?? Then, we can proceed further... Warm regards, Roger



Perhaps I was wrong in claiming that you have ever actually stated it outright, but I get the feeling that you imply it when I read your posts.

In going through some of your old posts in an effort to back up my statement, I see that you do have some belief in a "GOD", but it seems that you don't believe in any particular testimony that a prophet has given. Your "choosy" in what testimony you accept by the prophets.

So I guess I need to recant that you have no belief in God.

Could you please share your testimony regarding God as oyu see him?

Thanks

Gaz


Gaz, there is only one Man born of a woman that I'm willing to place my soul's care in.

Why do you need another mortal to lead you? Why not walk the path on your own? Are you afraid of doing that, afraid of perhaps making the wrong choice?
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
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