Legalistic Jesus

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Thu May 17, 2007 2:54 am

Growing up, I could not understand the behavior of those members of my family (and their acquaintances) who called themselves Christian. These were some of the most hostile, proud gossip-mongers I'd ever come across. And I started thinking this way at age 8.

Ain't much changed. There are still fundies out there who swear up and down that THEIR version of the Gospel (and there are many, but that doesn't deter the legalists) is the right one, but usually their strictures have nothing to do with love, forgiveness, compassion, mercy. Instead, they have everything to do with creating division, shaming people, and pointing out faults. I've never come to see Christ in this light, though I can understand why some who have dealt with legalists come away with such a bile-like taste in their mouth. It sickens me at times.

In one of my term papers I made a point that my teacher liked. The one thing that many Christians fail to do in dealing with the world today is something that they once used as a catch-slogan. "What would Jesus do?"

I think that many do not ask this question because they know that they'd have to change their ways, and be a little less lordly over others...and that probably doesn't sit well with them.

I was thinking today how many people need to be validated in this life, and they often look to other people to validate them. Within the community of religious groups, at work (crazy bosses and co-workers), at home, people look to see if they're approved of. I can't say whether or not this is a good thing, I'm still thinking on it. But it bothers me when someone needs to be validated so much that they push everyone else out of the boat.

Why is it that the scriptures on love and compassion are hardly ever quoted these days? And those who do are called weak by the legalists, you're doing it the wrong way, the legalists say, you need to be walking this way (insert dogma here).

All I know is that for a long time I hated myself. In my search for validation (which only brought me pain, which I why I question the need for it at all), I fell into a group that only led me to hate myself more because of their emphasis on perfection which I do not posess. I took a long journey into the wilderness, spent some time alone with God, and came out with a healthy dose of love for myself and a great heap of love for my Creator.

My past is my past. I do my best each day, and when I stumble, I ask for help to get up again if needed. I refuse to try to be perfect, for what can you learn from in perfection?

Every day is a test of faith, especially now. I have no idea what the next few weeks will bring for me. Had I believed in the legalistic God espoused by (blessedly) a few here, I'd be thinking right now that I did something to deserve what I'm going through, instead of believing that perhaps the storm had to blow some debris out of my life to make room for something better.

The God I worship gives me hope. But at the same time He does not give me condemnation. My pastor said that you know you're saved when the old things you used to do that you know you shouldn't make you think twice when they are presented to you again. Or, in case you slip, you feel your conscience speaking to you. I guess in judging others not worthy of God (while preening yourself in your own spiritual mirror), there is no guilt.

Makes me wonder though...how folks can quote all this scripture about how depraved others are, and yet look at their own selves in the mirror and not see a speck of judgement.

Ye are gods...

Post by **_The Nehor** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:06 am

Feel the same way. My friends who work in restaurants hate Sunday afternoons because the Christians come in after Church. They're rude, demanding, and tip horribly.

I'm with C.S. Lewis on this one. People who profess Christianity and are still arrogant are not worshipping the real God. Those who see the real God CAN'T be prideful. These people seem convinced that God is quite happy with them and are trading a pennyworth of humility for a pound's worth of pride over their fellowbeings. These are probably the people Christ will say to at the last day, "Ye never knew me," despite their protestations of doing many great works in his name.

Though even here I've fallen into the trap you describe. I've found there is little point in measuring others against scripture particularly those who do not consider it holy. The words of Scripture are addressed primarily to those who believe. The response to most condemning passages should be along the lines of, "Lord, is it I?"

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:13 am

Hi GIMR,

I was doing alright reading through your post until I got to the end where you said:

Makes me wonder though...how folks can quote all this scripture about how depraved others are, and yet look at their own selves in the mirror and not see a speck of judgement.

How on earth could you possibly know whether or not another person looks in the mirror without judgement? This is the same type of thing you said in relation to richard about his judging gays. I don't know where you're getting this. Do you have an anectdote that demonstrates it?

Jersey Girl

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:23 am

Jersey Girl wrote:Hi GIMR,

I was doing alright reading through your post until I got to the end where you said:

Makes me wonder though...how folks can quote all this scripture about how depraved others are, and yet look at their own selves in the mirror and not see a speck of judgement.

How on earth could you possibly know whether or not another person looks in the mirror without judgement? This is the same type of thing you said in relation to richard about his judging gays. I don't know where you're getting this. Do you have an anectdote that demonstrates it?

Jersey Girl

Yes. Relatives. Being told that I was doomed for hell at one of the lowest times of my life, and having those people, my kin tell me that they were righteous. They were saved, I was not.

I've been to so many country-club churches it is not funny. And they will tell you proudly that they're saved, and turn around the next second and gossip about sister such-and-such.

My maternal grandmother does it. She sat in my car one afternoon and told me "the world can do what they want, but they know we're right". She doesn't see herself as wrong, and would be horrified if you were to question her. I'm still supposed to re-convert back to my Jewish roots, how dare I become a Christian?

Jersey, tell me this: Why would anyone spend so much time trying to tell another person how unrighteous they were, if this person didn't feel superior?

It is because I feel my every weakness that I cannot damn gays to hell. Am I God? It is because I feel my every weakness that I cannot damn non-Christians to hell. Do I hold the keys to heaven and hell? I'm not sure if I've made it clear enough, but I'll sure try.

Please explain to me what I see to be the dichotomy of folks telling others how righteous they are in comparison to others, yet going home and feeling terrible about it. If you feel bad about it, why not stop? If you can't, why not get professional help?

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:25 am

GIMR...I'm around. brb

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:36 am

The Nehor wrote:Feel the same way. My friends who work in restaurants hate Sunday afternoons because the Christians come in after Church. They're rude, demanding, and tip horribly.

I'm with C.S. Lewis on this one. People who profess Christianity and are still arrogant are not worshipping the real God. Those who see the real God CAN'T be prideful. These people seem convinced that God is quite happy with them and are trading a pennyworth of humility for a pound's worth of pride over their fellowbeings. These are probably the people Christ will say to at the last day, "Ye never knew me," despite their protestations of doing many great works in his name.

Though even here I've fallen into the trap you describe. I've found there is little point in measuring others against scripture particularly those who do not consider it holy. The words of Scripture are addressed primarily to those who believe. The response to most condemning passages should be along the lines of, "Lord, is it I?"

Nehor, I'm the bain of most legalistic (or mildy charismatic) Christian's existence. I'm not doing my job as a Christian because I'm not out trying to talk people into converting, and I'm not out there giving tracts about hell to drug dealers, tracts about "Jesus is the only bread you need" to homeless people. To folks who do this I'm their worst enemy.

My house is a little cleaner than it was a few years ago. But compared to where it could be, it's still in shambles. And I cannot finance the repairs on my own. So until the holes in my roof are fixed, the foundations are secure, I ain't inviting anyone in to tea. You can stop and comment on the repairs anytime, and we can compare "contractors" if you will. But I have no ultimate way of knowing my handyman is any better than yours. Fundies call that laziness or a willingness to sin, I call that erring on the side of caution.

It's a catch-22. We're not supposed to use the scriptures to tell people to be more compassionate, because those same people are using the scriptures as a weapon against mankind...but in a gentle way you see, they really care, and that's why we have all the rhetoric about sexual sins and perversions...not to mention every other sin that those who notice must not posess in themselves. In asking someone to be more tolerant, you become judgemental, because you have no right to tell another person that they have no right to mistreat someone, be it through preaching or any other means. But in sitting and saying nothing, you allow others to be abused. What do you do?

Well I'll be a bigot for the sake of gays and non-Christians in the world. And I'm sorry, but I don't want someone to call themself my friend who feels that I shall never see God. I don't see you that way (I don't even see the legalists that way, I just think they're gonna be surprised when they reach heaven at whose there...they might even want to leave). I have one person in my life whose tried that with me, and he's been chewed out on that more than once. I've told him, either you change that, or I walk. I don't need such nonsense. Each time I have to correct him, he comes back and says "what you say is right", but he (for whatever reason, all he does is mumble about how miserable and lonely he is) continues to cling to the legalism that is his faith (fundie LDS). And he slips up occassionally about how someone doesn't have the spirit, or this that and the other. The only reason I tolerate it is because it's happening less and less...he makes an effort now to love me where I am, as I have him, even when I was furious at what I was going through. I've never said a single anti-mormon statement to him. I've gone to his dinners and FHEs, I've gone to firesides long after having left the church. To me, that is what is right.

Preaching at people that because they don't walk like you, they won't see heaven is cruel. I believe it is wrong, and I think that only the bold and delusioned can do it with a straight face. And I'm not in the least sorry for saying that.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:06 am

Let me give you a more personal example of why I feel that if you're really human, you cannot go on telling (or in my case, showing) people what God thinks of them.

My mother and I have a pretty good relationship now. I don't know if you've ever read some of what I've described about our interaction, I think I posted a thread about it here a while ago. Since my stroke, she's really come through for me, and it's hard relying solely on her for many reasons. Still, she and I have a history.

My mother abused me severely growing up, it's not something that we even talk about, my mother's family chooses to dance around these issues. Me, I'd love to just get it all out in the open. But I was never allowed to.

So I turned to my faith in a higher power to keep me alive during those dark years.

In the past I have never been able to sit in a church with my mother. God was my refuge (sorry for the cliché) from her. I have only sat in church with her a handful of times in life.

She's watched me as I have developed spiritually. She watches me as I study, I've talked to her about some of the debates I've had on message boards over the years. Some of it she finds amusing, some of it she finds interesting. This is the one thing she's never tried to discourage me from at least once. It's strange to me, really.

One day mom asked to go to church with me. I said yes, but my heart was screaming no. Still, she went, and I made it very clear (though I didn't realize it) that I didn't want her there. All I could think of was that my abuser was invading my sanctuary. I didn't give a damn about what she might have been feeling.

When I realized just how transparent my behavior was, the shame I felt almost doubled me over permanently. You see, I love my God as I view God to be that much that I felt that I had to make amends with this woman, even this woman, and that I had no right to deny her God...despite what she'd done. And it was horrible. In many things God has been my only true witness.

I apologized to my mother, I got on my knees and asked for forgiveness, I never denied her again, and I asked my pastor what I should do that following week. I'm still uncomfortable about going to church with my mother, but not for the same reasons. It's no longer a case of me fortifying myself against her. I'm getting used to showing emotion around her. Growing up I could not cry in front of her. Some sundays that is all I do.

I ask the questions I do because I hold myself to the same standard. I could not look at myself in the mirror after what I had done to my mother, my abuser. I could not! And it was because of what I believe as a Christian. It wasn't about turning the other cheek (that'll never happen again), it was about showing mercy. She wanted to know Jesus through me, and I shut and barred the door. Was that what Jesus would have done?

When I showed my mother by my sullen nature that I didn't want her with me in what she knew was one of my most favorite places, I showed her how little I valued her. And that hurt her. And in doing so, no matter what she did or how I felt about it, I did wrong. I kept trying to take vengeance instead of waiting on God to foster understanding.

In this situation it had to stop being about me. Just like in Richard's situation it has to stop being about his beliefs about gay people (there is so much more you can focus on in the body of Christ), and in other legalistic situations, it has to stop being about the fundie and what they think is right. At the end of the day what is right is what is the most merciful...no matter how outraged you may feel.

The next time I head out and mom wants to come with...guess what? She's coming. And I'll grow a little.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:13 am

GIMR: Yes. Relatives. Being told that I was doomed for hell at one of the lowest times of my life, and having those people, my kin tell me that they were righteous. They were saved, I was not.

Jersey Girl: I don't know what the lowest time was. Did they actually say outright "We are righteous"? If so, I would disagree that any human being is righteous. Maybe trying to live a righteous life, but actually righteous? I don't see how that could be. Sounds too much like boasting to me. If they said that they were saved and that you were not. I see nothing wrong with saying that. I just don't know how it was said. It could have been an "in your face" statement or a warning to you based on their love for you.

GIMR: I've been to so many country-club churches it is not funny. And they will tell you proudly that they're saved, and turn around the next second and gossip about sister such-and-such.

Jersey Girl: Being saved doesn't exempt one from sin. I'll leave it at that unless you want a scripture ref.

GIMR: My maternal grandmother does it. She sat in my car one afternoon and told me "the world can do what they want, but they know we're right". She doesn't see herself as wrong, and would be horrified if you were to question her. I'm still supposed to re-convert back to my Jewish roots, how dare I become a Christian?

Jersey Girl: The statement that you quote seems odd to me.

GIMR: Jersey, tell me this: Why would anyone spend so much time trying to tell another person how unrighteous they were, if this person didn't feel superior?

Jersey Girl: Because they care about you. An example, I see all the time LDS saying that EVs hate them and spend their time criticizing the Church because of hatred. I don't claim to speak for all EV's but a great many EV's are honestly worried about LDS.

GIMR: It is because I feel my every weakness that I cannot damn gays to hell. Am I God? It is because I feel my every weakness that I cannot damn non-Christians to hell. Do I hold the keys to heaven and hell? I'm not sure if I've made it clear enough, but I'll sure try.

Jersey Girl: I don't think that human beings are in a position to damn anyone to hell or to judge the heart of another person. Did you ever read Mandela's speech about being a child of god? I think you should plaster that on your wall, GIMR. I will post it here for you.

GIMR: Please explain to me what I see to be the dichotomy of folks telling others how righteous they are in comparison to others, yet going home and feeling terrible about it. If you feel bad about it, why not stop? If you can't, why not get professional help?

Jersey Girl: Are they actually saying that they are righteous or are they saying "I'm saved". That is two very different things. How do you know they feel terrible about it? How do they express it?

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:23 am

GIMR, there is something that I love so much about the following that I had it framed. It was written for Nelson Mandela's Inauguration in 1994.

"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us, it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

Post by **_The Nehor** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:35 am

GIMR wrote:
The Nehor wrote:Feel the same way. My friends who work in restaurants hate Sunday afternoons because the Christians come in after Church. They're rude, demanding, and tip horribly.

I'm with C.S. Lewis on this one. People who profess Christianity and are still arrogant are not worshipping the real God. Those who see the real God CAN'T be prideful. These people seem convinced that God is quite happy with them and are trading a pennyworth of humility for a pound's worth of pride over their fellowbeings. These are probably the people Christ will say to at the last day, "Ye never knew me," despite their protestations of doing many great works in his name.

Though even here I've fallen into the trap you describe. I've found there is little point in measuring others against scripture particularly those who do not consider it holy. The words of Scripture are addressed primarily to those who believe. The response to most condemning passages should be along the lines of, "Lord, is it I?"

Nehor, I'm the bain of most legalistic (or mildy charismatic) Christian's existence. I'm not doing my job as a Christian because I'm not out trying to talk people into converting, and I'm not out there giving tracts about hell to drug dealers, tracts about "Jesus is the only bread you need" to homeless people. To folks who do this I'm their worst enemy.

My house is a little cleaner than it was a few years ago. But compared to where it could be, it's still in shambles. And I cannot finance the repairs on my own. So until the holes in my roof are fixed, the foundations are secure, I ain't inviting anyone in to tea. You can stop and comment on the repairs anytime, and we can compare "contractors" if you will. But I have no ultimate way of knowing my handyman is any better than yours. Fundies call that laziness or a willingness to sin, I call that erring on the side of caution.

It's a catch-22. We're not supposed to use the scriptures to tell people to be more compassionate, because those same people are using the scriptures as a weapon against mankind...but in a gentle way you see, they really care, and that's why we have all the rhetoric about sexual sins and perversions...not to mention every other sin that those who notice must not posess in themselves. In asking someone to be more tolerant, you become judgemental, because you have no right to tell another person that they have no right to mistreat someone, be it through preaching or any other means. But in sitting and saying nothing, you allow others to be abused. What do you do?

Well I'll be a bigot for the sake of gays and non-Christians in the world. And I'm sorry, but I don't want someone to call themself my friend who feels that I shall never see God. I don't see you that way (I don't even see the legalists that way, I just think they're gonna be surprised when they reach heaven at whose there...they might even want to leave). I have one person in my life whose tried that with me, and he's been chewed out on that more than once. I've told him, either you change that, or I walk. I don't need such nonsense. Each time I have to correct him, he comes back and says "what you say is right", but he (for whatever reason, all he does is mumble about how miserable and lonely he is) continues to cling to the legalism that is his faith (fundie LDS). And he slips up occassionally about how someone doesn't have the spirit, or this that and the other. The only reason I tolerate it is because it's happening less and less...he makes an effort now to love me where I am, as I have him, even when I was furious at what I was going through. I've never said a single anti-mormon statement to him. I've gone to his dinners and FHEs, I've gone to firesides long after having left the church. To me, that is what is right.

Preaching at people that because they don't walk like you, they won't see heaven is cruel. I believe it is wrong, and I think that only the bold and delusioned can do it with a straight face. And I'm not in the least sorry for saying that.

I'm not sure it's a catch-22. These are my Missionary mottos:

"Nothing is so much calculated to lead people to forsake sin as to take them by the hand, and watch over them with tenderness. When persons manifest the least kindness and love to me, O what power it has over my mind, while the opposite course has a tendency to harrow up all the harsh feelings and depress the human mind." -Joseph Smith

"Preach the gospel at all times. Use words if necessary." -Attributed to St. Francis

No one loudly and urgently warning me I was going to burn in hell ever convinced me that they were concerned. The thing that kept me out of serious trouble as a teenager was that no matter how much I resented my parent's commands I knew that they loved me. I've found the principle holds true in all relationships. I have friends who can tell me point-blank things that would infuriate me coming from anyone else.....but they've proved themselves. I know they care about me enough that what they say they mean and they are doing it to try to help and they think the same of me. The hell passages in Scripture have a very different meaning for me since I've developed that kind of a relationship with God. Some random person spouting them is almost blasphemous to me.

I dislike legalism. The law killeth. For some (including myself) it is a stepping stone but I think it's one that should be gotten off of very quickly. Saying someone else will never see God is presumptious and if you subscribe to LDS theology it is an outright lie. According to it all will reenter the presence of God to be judged.