My son's baptism

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:11 pm

Bond...James Bond wrote:If you're willing to do it, and your wife wants you to do it, and the kid wants you to do it, I say do and screw what everyone else thinks.

AMEN!

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:14 pm

I respect what you're doing, Runtu, and I'm glad the bishop isn't being a jerk, and is letting you do it.

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:19 pm

Well, I have to say that agree with what Who Knows said. To me, it's an opportunity to teach your kid about integrity.

But hey, a case could be made for saying that your love for your kid is more important than balking at what amounts to a meaningless ritual, so from that perspective, why the hell not?

It's certainly your call, and I won't judge you negatively for it (not that you care what I think, or should care what I think). Based on what I know about you in the short time I've been reading your posts, your intent is likely pure.

I will say this, however: the thought of me baptizing my daughter sends a massive shiver down my spine. I would never impose that on her. You do realize that you're making it so that when he gets older and is finally able to think through these matters as an objective adult, he's going to be forced to deal with the church if he wants to resign?

I also think about and like what Richard Dawkins has to say about imposing religion on children: it's child abuse. They aren't Mormon children, or catholic children, or muslim children. They're children of Mormon, catholic or muslim parents. Kids don't have an informed opinion on philosophy any more than they have on matters of politics, economics, etc.

Post by **_Who Knows** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:20 pm

I don't know. Maybe we're just in different situations.

Everyone knows I don't believe it anymore. I'd just feel like a total schmuck up there. Especially during the confirmation - '...we bless you with faith, we bless you that you'll go on a mission, that you'll get married in the temple, blah blah blah'.

And everyone would be like - wtf is this guy talking about?

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:26 pm

Who Knows wrote:I don't know. Maybe we're just in different situations.

Everyone knows I don't believe it anymore. I'd just feel like a total schmuck up there. Especially during the confirmation - '...we bless you with faith, we bless you that you'll go on a mission, that you'll get married in the temple, blah blah blah'.

And everyone would be like - wtf is this guy talking about?

You could do the baptism and have a Grandpa or another member of the family do the confirmation.

Post by **_The Dude** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:26 pm

Runtu wrote:Honestly, I don't worry about that. If he ever asks that question, I'll tell him exactly why I did that. I'd rather explain to an 18 year old why I did this than explain to a little boy why his daddy doesn't want to baptize him. Does that make sense?

So you will give these reasons to your 18-year old son when he's about to go into the world and be an adult:

1) Your wife begged you to.
2) You were afraid your youngest will be disappointed.
3) The bishop said it would be a good thing.

and

4) It doesn't make a difference to you.

The reasons you outlined seem to indicate other people have a lot of influence on you. Well, at least you don't care what a bunch of anonymous exmormons think. :-)

Post by **_Blixa** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:29 pm

Its your call, of course, runtu and in the long run probably not at all a harmful thing. I mean its meaningful only to the extent that people want to grant it meaning. The importance of it as a social ritual to an 8 year old is different than how your son might view it later when you can have a more substantial discussion of it.

In theory, I would think I'd be inclined to go the Who Knows route, but then again, I've never been even close to being in this kind of situation. So in practice I might find things looked a lot different. Especially with your spousal situation.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:31 pm

The Dude wrote:So you will give these reasons to your 18-year old son when he's about to go into the world and be an adult:

1) Your wife begged you to.
2) You were afraid your youngest will be disappointed.
3) The bishop said it would be a good thing.

and

4) It doesn't make a difference to you.

The reasons you outlined seem to indicate other people have a lot of influence on you. Well, at least you don't care what a bunch of anonymous exmormons think. :-)

Frankly, I think his answer will be more along the lines of:

"I participated in your baptism because it was a family cultural celebration. Even though I did not believe in Mormonism, I did not want you to think, as an 8 year old, that I loved you any less than your older brothers and sisters. I wanted it to be a special day for you in celebrating being together as a family. You're an adult now, and have the means to study things out for yourself and make your own decision. You will always be loved, cared for, and accepted no matter what you decide from a religious standpoint."

I'm sure that Runtu can word this better, but that's the gist of what I think he's trying to say. ;)[/quote]

Post by **_Some Schmo** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:38 pm

liz3564 wrote:Frankly, I think his answer will be more along the lines of:

"I participated in your baptism because it was a family cultural celebration. Even though I did not believe in Mormonism, I did not want you to think, as an 8 year old, that I loved you any less than your older brothers and sisters. I wanted it to be a special day for you in celebrating being together as a family. You're an adult now, and have the means to study things out for yourself and make your own decision. You will always be loved, cared for, and accepted no matter what you decide from a religious standpoint."

I'm sure that Runtu can word this better, but that's the gist of what I think he's trying to say. ;)

But liz, his son doesn't have to feel like he loves him less if he's just up front about his reasons now. In fact, I'd get all the children involved and say something like:

"I know I baptized you all except [youngest son], but I've decided I'm not going to perform this ritual anymore. Sometimes, adults change their minds on important matters (it's called being flexible and open minded), and it's important to let your actions reflect your beliefs. That's called integrity. I'm not going to baptize [youngest son] specifically for the same reasons I baptized everyone else: I love him, and it's my job to demonstrate integrity as a loving father."

Or something like that.

_Yoda · Post by **_Yoda** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:41 pm

Some Schmo wrote:But liz, his son doesn't have to feel like he loves him less if he's just up front about his reasons now. In fact, I'd get all the children involved and say something like:

"I know I baptized you all except [youngest son], but I've decided I'm not going to perform this ritual anymore. Sometimes, adults change their minds on important matters (it's called being flexible and open minded), and it's important to let your actions reflect your beliefs. That's called integrity. I'm not going to baptize [youngest son] specifically for the same reasons I baptized everyone else: I love him, and it's my job to demonstrate integrity as a loving father."

Or something like that.

Easier said than done when you have family flying in from other places just for the baptism and a graduation.

There will be plenty of opportunities to create an integrity lesson. Why add unnecessary strain on the marriage, family relations, and put the little boy in the middle?