Homosexuals Honour Spong...

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

I can say you are wrong to say that ALL Mormons study Scripture that way as I do not. How many do I don't know, I hope it is very few.

I said "ALL" Mormons? Actually, I try to avoid absolutes. I see no reason for you to infer "all" Mormons. However, it is the way scripture is studied in church. You have a lesson topic, say "eternal marriage," and then you have scriptures and quotes to support the LDS stance. That's not such a problem with the Book of Mormon, D&C and Book of Abraham, since they were all made up on the spot and haven't much history or context, but the Bible does have history and context which is generally never understood by Mormons (except for Nehor).

You are correct about my assumption, I mentally put an all in your statement, my mistake.

In response to the rest of your statement I have to laugh. No Church I know of uses a very different method of teaching. The Church does not have time to go deeply into history or context (I scratched the surface when I taught but that is all I had time for). The normal standard I hear is that we should spend at least a half hour a day in the scriptures and an hour on Sunday. That's 4 hours a week, 16 a month, and 204 a year. On average we spend less than 52 a year in study of the Scriptures collectively. If you're not learning the bulk of it outside Church you will never learn it. Most members I know are spending time expanding their understanding of all four of the Standard Works.

Okay, you're the one sitting in church, and I'm not, but I've gotten the impression from reading theses boards that the church generally discourages bringing any outside materials into lessons. You can tell me whether or not you are encouraged or discouraged from bringing outside materials into your private studies. If encouraged, then please share what outside materials you may be using in your study of the Bible (please restrict yourself to the Bible here) in order to gain an understanding of history and context.

Maybe Jersey Girl will share her study program of the Bible as well. It might be an interesting comparison.

Thank you.

[_Gazelam]

You give an interesting commentary. To change the terminology of "Lust towards one another" to mean fighting and war was very odd.

I believe vs. 24-29 speak pretty plainly that homosexual activity is listed as a sinful nature, being lumped in with all of the other vices and ills mentioned.

You state:

Who cannot be aware of death? All die, the good, bad and the indifferent.

I think you missed this one in that what is being spoken of is spiritual death. You can take it to mean physical death and day of judgement as well, but to live after the manner of the flesh with corrupt lusts and corrupt views is to damn ones soul and die a spiritual death, cut off from the light and creative power that is God. They show themselves unworthy of bearing the creative force, and damn their eternal exiastence in the process.

[_Gazelam]

You can tell me whether or not you are encouraged or discouraged from bringing outside materials into your private studies. If encouraged, then please share what outside materials you may be using in your study of the Bible (please restrict yourself to the Bible here) in order to gain an understanding of history and context.

Heres what I use:

Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary
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Doctrinal New Testament Commentary
by Bruce R McConkie

3 Vols.

This set of books are heavily quoted in a number of other books I have. Very insightful.


Also Hugh Nibley has a number of Books on various Bible topics. I'm currently working my way through his Book "Abraham in Egypt", My next one is on Enoch.



The Messiah Series is an exhaustive study on the life of Christ. Very good also.

[_Coggins7]

Plan of salvation ... another sign of a god made in man's image.

This is over your head Lucretia. Resistance is futile.

[_Coggins7]

Some of this, I think, may have merit. Some is an exercise in sophistry and stunningly imaginative biblical exegesis that's difficult to get one's mind wrapped around. Let's take a look.



23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

No. The anthropomorism in both the New Testament an Old Testament is, or should be, well beyond question.


24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

RM: Would that include over indulgence in material stuff that rusts? What about over-eating to a state of obesity when told in the WoW to avoid meats and unhealthy stuff to consume mostly veggies & fruits??

I can think of no reason whatsoever to impose that interpretation upon this verse.


25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

RM: Like having "Domion over the whole earth" and "the divine right of Kings" and "superiority of some races" and "the more valiant in another life are more deserving of good-stuff in this one" and "pain & suffering are for one's own good" and "secret oaths & covenants are THE keys to exaltation, franchised only to "God's" favoured..."????

Huh?


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

RM: Would that have been Jacob's mom who favoured Jake over his brother and lied to her husband and conived to take what belonged to Essau?

No. This clearly has reference to homosexual practices.


27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

RM: Sounds a lot like warriors who leave home-&-hearth to kill in blood-lust and for the glory and spoils of battle... Man competing with man for honour and wealth: BOOTY!!

Beyond the sheer unintelligibleness of this, the answer is no again. The above verse clearly has reference to homosexuality; in this case, male homosexuality.


28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

RM: Yep, sounds a lot like what makes for power, wealth, glory and the Celestial Kingdom where one increases status from mere man living by Christ's teachings of charity and serving the under privileged to Kingdoms and Glories unending...

When you get a decent hold upon LDS theology...and New Testament theology, lets revisit this sometime.


29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

RM: Sounds like the dysfunction that most of us function in...with varying degrees of success...

Well, speak for yourself on a number of those.


31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

RM: More dysfunction. Family violence. Child abuse. Spousal abuse. Social injustice. Expliotation. Agressions. War--collateral damage. Generally speaking, man's inhumanity. Spoken against by all Spiritual leaders of humanity...

Yes, and so?


Well, where else can this go?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Plan of salvation ... another sign of a god made in man's image.

This is over your head Lucretia. Resistance is futile.

You just don't understand my comment. See, I'm always ahead of you because I don't just understand how Mormons think, I also understand how I think, which is something for which you have shown no inclination or or ability. "I" am over your head, darling.

[_Coggins7]

You just don't understand my comment. See, I'm always ahead of you because I don't just understand how Mormons think, I also understand how I think, which is something for which you have shown no inclination or or ability. "I" am over your head, darling.

The only reason you over my head is because your sitting on a high horse, and believe me, anything he leaves behind on the carpet is your responsibility to clean up.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

You just don't understand my comment. See, I'm always ahead of you because I don't just understand how Mormons think, I also understand how I think, which is something for which you have shown no inclination or or ability. "I" am over your head, darling.

The only reason you over my head is because your sitting on a high horse, and believe me, anything he leaves behind on the carpet is your responsibility to clean up.

Your humility is exceeded only by ... oh, never mind.

[_Jersey Girl]

Romans 1 again...

Loran, what in the world does your comment to verse 23 mean?



23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Quote:
RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

Loran:
No. The anthropomorism in both the New Testament an Old Testament is, or should be, well beyond question.

What is verse 23 about, Loran? What are you saying? Er...typing.

Jersey Girl

[_The Nehor]

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

I can say you are wrong to say that ALL Mormons study Scripture that way as I do not. How many do I don't know, I hope it is very few.

I said "ALL" Mormons? Actually, I try to avoid absolutes. I see no reason for you to infer "all" Mormons. However, it is the way scripture is studied in church. You have a lesson topic, say "eternal marriage," and then you have scriptures and quotes to support the LDS stance. That's not such a problem with the Book of Mormon, D&C and Book of Abraham, since they were all made up on the spot and haven't much history or context, but the Bible does have history and context which is generally never understood by Mormons (except for Nehor).

You are correct about my assumption, I mentally put an all in your statement, my mistake.

In response to the rest of your statement I have to laugh. No Church I know of uses a very different method of teaching. The Church does not have time to go deeply into history or context (I scratched the surface when I taught but that is all I had time for). The normal standard I hear is that we should spend at least a half hour a day in the scriptures and an hour on Sunday. That's 4 hours a week, 16 a month, and 204 a year. On average we spend less than 52 a year in study of the Scriptures collectively. If you're not learning the bulk of it outside Church you will never learn it. Most members I know are spending time expanding their understanding of all four of the Standard Works.

Okay, you're the one sitting in church, and I'm not, but I've gotten the impression from reading theses boards that the church generally discourages bringing any outside materials into lessons. You can tell me whether or not you are encouraged or discouraged from bringing outside materials into your private studies. If encouraged, then please share what outside materials you may be using in your study of the Bible (please restrict yourself to the Bible here) in order to gain an understanding of history and context.

Maybe Jersey Girl will share her study program of the Bible as well. It might be an interesting comparison.

Thank you.

In the Bible right now I'm in the Old Testament.

I've been reading Josephus at the same time chronologically.

I've been using a book called "Battles of the Bible" by Chaim Herzog and Mordechai Gichon. It's an interesting military analysis so far.

I read Nibley's Old Testament and Related Studies a few weeks back.

Though kinda out-of-date I've also referenced Alan Gardiner's "The Egyptians" and O.R. Gurney's "The Hittites" for some background.

I use some older Old Testament Institute Manuals I still have.

I use the Book of Mormon, especially when in Isaiah.

I use the notes I've made on previous readings and correct them and add to them as I feel it's needed.

I use two different translations other than the King James version for alternate readings of some passages.