Evidence of God

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_Coggins7
_Emeritus
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Post by _Coggins7 »

[
quote]None of the anecdotal stories are evidence for God as you claim.


I don't believe he claimed they were evidence for God in any sense that would convince an outside observer not having those same experiences.


The evidence is of your mentality. They are evidence that your God box is extremely limited to emotional feelings only.


He mentioned feelings but also a number of other perceptual experiences, including auditoryl and visual. Did you miss that?


Again, you attempt to declare truth by assertion. Even if all your stories are your perception or your experience, they offer nothing which is open to testing, skeptical review, or objective analysis for some entity that one might consider rises to the level of evidence for God.


The problem here is of an a priori assumption against God's existence combined with an a priori presumption of the primacy of the kind of evidence and methodology useful in studying bacteria over any other kind of evidence or methodology. In other words, whatever you might say about Nehor's experiences, you mind is closed, a priori, to any methodology or approach by which you could apprehend truths beyond those accessible through empirical means. In other words, you cannot critique Nehor's claimed spiritual experiences using the methadology of empirical science. Science cannot be used to verify spiritual things because the mortal, human mind, or which science is a construct, is perceptually incapable of verifying them through those very means. In other words, you are holding spiritual things to a standard that creates the very opacity of spiritual things of which you are so aware. The frog in the well thinks that is the extent of the universe in which he exists. If he had a telescope, he would know otherwise. We think the material universe is all there is, but if we approach God with faith and humility, our perceptions are opened to other realms that our physical senses and unaided intellects cannot perceive. Attempting to use a methodology created and therefore delimited and conditioned by that very mortal intellect will only further reflect those very mortal limitations. One must use other means to open one's understanding to spiritual things. This is ultimately, while not hostile to reason, much more a matter of faith and imagination.

You really do have a very tiny God.



Why could it not be equally as plausible that you, as the rest of us, have a tiny mind?
_JAK
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _JAK »

The Nehor wrote:Did you not read the end of my post? I wasn't offering you skeptical review. I was showing you some evidences that have reinforced my own belief. I hardly expected you to fall to your knees and begin shouting 'hosanna' at the top of your lungs after reading it. I think you think I'm trying to convince you that there is a God. I'm not arrogant enough to think I can do that. If God desperately wanted to prove himself to you I hardly think he would need my help to do it.

I didn't go into physical miracles (no, I'm not talking about healing) because in all but one of them I was the only one there. My God is not limited to emotional feelings. Did you miss the being physically affected parts? At least accuse me of having seizures or something....I mean, c'mon.

I don't understand how I fail any refutation or analysis which has been presented.....can you explain?

I'm declaring truth by experience, not assertion.

I do not know how tall God is so he may in fact be tiny. If he chooses to reveal himself to me physically I'll give you an update.


If you in fact had a “seizure,” Medical evaluation could determine that and why you had it. Do you take medication for seizures?

You appear incapable of comprehending that you make assertions absent objectively corroborated confirmation. Absent genuine testing of your claims, you have established nothing here, Nehor.

Your experiences described were emotional.

You have presented no evidence for your God claims. Your claims are lacking in specificity. I agree: “(you) I don’t understand...”

You state: “I do not know how tall God is so he may in fact be tiny.”

So you invent God in the image of a physical (something) that may be “tall” or may be “tiny.”

You don’t know anything about your claim for God. You make it up to suit your emotional state.

Height of your God, what’s that?

When you state: “I’m declaring truth by experience...” that is an assertion. You’re telling stories about one person in (currently) 6,000,000,000 (billion) humans on the earth.

God myth is irrelevant in any of your stories. You show no relevancy.

JAK
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _Jersey Girl »

JAK wrote: None of the anecdotal stories are evidence for God as you claim.

The evidence is of your mentality. They are evidence that your God box is extremely limited to emotional feelings only.

You also fail any refutation or analysis which has been presented to you.

Again, you attempt to declare truth by assertion. Even if all your stories are your perception or your experience, they offer nothing which is open to testing, skeptical review, or objective analysis for some entity that one might consider rises to the level of evidence for God.

You really do have a very tiny God.


JAK


Do you consider a mental image to be "emotional feelings only"?

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_JAK
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _JAK »

Jersey Girl wrote:Do you consider a mental image to be "emotional feelings only"?

Jersey Girl


It might be. It might be hallucination. It might be a realistic perception.

JAK
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _Jersey Girl »

JAK wrote:It might be. It might be hallucination. It might be a realistic perception.

JAK


I can tell you from first hand experience that visual learners (like myself) see things in mental images. I have had more than one similar experiences as Nehor has described, you might recall my referring to them previously as pre-cognitive events. Things that I literally "saw" in my head and came true and no, there were no prior "clues" given. These, at the time, seemed like random images. I will share one with you elsewhere.

Jersey Girl
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Coggins7 wrote:Its good to see that Scratch and his family get out together as a family unit and involve themselves in something in which they can all bond as significant others and get to know each other better.

Gee, Scratch is an old softie after all.

What a way to spend FHE.


What separates myself from you common folk peasants is that I practice my sarcasm outside the realms of a fantasy world.

You have s*** all over you:
Image

I promise to be extremely nice to Nehor but coggy boy, you're fair game.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_The Nehor
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _The Nehor »

JAK wrote:If you in fact had a “seizure,” Medical evaluation could determine that and why you had it. Do you take medication for seizures?

You appear incapable of comprehending that you make assertions absent objectively corroborated confirmation. Absent genuine testing of your claims, you have established nothing here, Nehor.

Your experiences described were emotional.

You have presented no evidence for your God claims. Your claims are lacking in specificity. I agree: “(you) I don’t understand...”

You state: “I do not know how tall God is so he may in fact be tiny.”

So you invent God in the image of a physical (something) that may be “tall” or may be “tiny.”

You don’t know anything about your claim for God. You make it up to suit your emotional state.

Height of your God, what’s that?

When you state: “I’m declaring truth by experience...” that is an assertion. You’re telling stories about one person in (currently) 6,000,000,000 (billion) humans on the earth.

God myth is irrelevant in any of your stories. You show no relevancy.

JAK


You started the tiny God thing, that was your assumption, not mine. My response was tongue-in-cheek in case you missed that.

No, I don't have seizures and have never taken medication for them.

My claims weren't specific enough? Do you want dates? A medical report on the bump I got when falling out of bed? A signed statement from the spirit I saw?

What the hell? I keep telling you I don't expect you to take my stories and suddenly believe in God and do not believe they can be objectively analyzed yet you continue to try to test them as if they were. This would be akin to me saying, "I love my Mom," and you proving to me in great depth that my saying it doesn't make you love my mom and is not objective material for showing that everyone should love my mom. So of course you see no relevance. Water is great for swimming but you should not try to breathe it.

Okaaaay, I know I'm just one person. How far did you think my megalomania extended? I fail to see how 'God myth' is irrelevant to a story about my relationship with God.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_JAK
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _JAK »

Jersey Girl observed:

I can tell you from first hand experience that visual learners (like myself) see things in mental images. I have had more than one similar experiences as Nehor has described, you might recall my referring to them previously as pre-cognitive events. Things that I literally "saw" in my head and came true and no, there were no prior "clues" given. These, at the time, seemed like random images. I will share one with you elsewhere.

In the context of your comment, I can appreciate that one might have a mental picture. However, if you “saw” something that happened, there are some options.

One is that you had prior clues which you didn’t process consciously. A premonition may have had a basis in fact. A second is that your perception turned out to be correct. I suspect you have also had premonitions (perhaps of something bad) which turned out not to be the case. Your worst mental picture turned out to be incorrect or not as bad as you had pictured.

It is surely fair to recognize that virtually everyone has a perception or a mental image which may or may not turn out to be predictive.

However, such experiences are in no way evidence for God as Nehor has claimed. That he may have a religious background that makes him conclude as he does is not evidence for a God claim.

But I think your experience(s) happen to many people. If there were truly accurate premonitions, and reliable in high percentage of something out of the blue, a person who had them would be on all the talk shows telling us of events that would happen, AND those predictions would have a high percentage accuracy rate.

There was a woman who predicted the assassination of JFK before the fact. She was right and DID go on shows as a seer of sorts. The problem was that she only got that one right. It made her famous (15 minutes of fame). But in further predictions, she was wrong. When we consider how few Presidents we have had and those who have been killed or an attempt was made to kill them, her prediction had a reasonable chance of being right.


JAK
_The Nehor
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Re: Sorry, No evidence here for God

Post by _The Nehor »

JAK wrote:Jersey Girl observed:

I can tell you from first hand experience that visual learners (like myself) see things in mental images. I have had more than one similar experiences as Nehor has described, you might recall my referring to them previously as pre-cognitive events. Things that I literally "saw" in my head and came true and no, there were no prior "clues" given. These, at the time, seemed like random images. I will share one with you elsewhere.

In the context of your comment, I can appreciate that one might have a mental picture. However, if you “saw” something that happened, there are some options.

One is that you had prior clues which you didn’t process consciously. A premonition may have had a basis in fact. A second is that your perception turned out to be correct. I suspect you have also had premonitions (perhaps of something bad) which turned out not to be the case. Your worst mental picture turned out to be incorrect or not as bad as you had pictured.

It is surely fair to recognize that virtually everyone has a perception or a mental image which may or may not turn out to be predictive.

However, such experiences are in no way evidence for God as Nehor has claimed. That he may have a religious background that makes him conclude as he does is not evidence for a God claim.

But I think your experience(s) happen to many people. If there were truly accurate premonitions, and reliable in high percentage of something out of the blue, a person who had them would be on all the talk shows telling us of events that would happen, AND those predictions would have a high percentage accuracy rate.

There was a woman who predicted the assassination of JFK before the fact. She was right and DID go on shows as a seer of sorts. The problem was that she only got that one right. It made her famous (15 minutes of fame). But in further predictions, she was wrong. When we consider how few Presidents we have had and those who have been killed or an attempt was made to kill them, her prediction had a reasonable chance of being right.


JAK


Why would they be on talk shows telling everyone what was going to happen? What I learn from Prophecy is related to my life alone. No one would care enough to put it on TV. I wasn't 'in' on 9/11 and I'm not sure anyone was.

There is a difference between a mental picture and me dreaming of my future and prophetic foresight. I can tell the difference when they happen. The former are common and rarely right. the latter are always right and don't come on command.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:And by the way, keep in mind as you're defending Scratch, one of the most vicious, mendacious anti-Mormon demagogues I've ever run into either on the Web or in print, that what you tolerate and accept, you teach.


Gee, thanks for that compliment. If I had the wherewithal of DCP, I would put that into my signature line! Oh, well. Maybe next time.
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