Homosexuals Honour Spong...

[_Jersey Girl]

Lucretia

Maybe Jersey Girl will share her study program of the Bible as well. It might be an interesting comparison.

Thank you.

I don't know exactly what you're asking me for here, Lucretia. Could you be more specific?

Jersey Girl

[_Coggins7]

Romans 1 again...

Loran, what in the world does your comment to verse 23 mean?



23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Quote:
RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

Loran:
No. The anthropomorism in both the New Testament an Old Testament is, or should be, well beyond question.

What is verse 23 about, Loran? What are you saying? Er...typing.

Jersey Girl

Well, as best I can make out, what he's implying here is that mental images of God as a man in form-anthropomorphism-is a part of what is meant by the verse. To this I replied that the anthropomorphism of God, as attested in the Old Testament and New Testament, is quite well attested. I assume he believes that God is an essence or intelligent force of some kind. Some of his writing is rather hard to follow, which is why I ended the post where I did and left it at that.

[_Jersey Girl]

Romans 1 again...

Loran, what in the world does your comment to verse 23 mean?



23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Quote:
RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

Loran:
No. The anthropomorism in both the New Testament an Old Testament is, or should be, well beyond question.

What is verse 23 about, Loran? What are you saying? Er...typing.

Jersey Girl

Well, as best I can make out, what he's implying here is that mental images of God as a man in form-anthropomorphism-is a part of what is meant by the verse. To this I replied that the anthropomorphism of God, as attested in the Old Testament and New Testament, is quite well attested. I assume he believes that God is an essence or intelligent force of some kind. Some of his writing is rather hard to follow, which is why I ended the post where I did and left it at that.

Good, now could you explain to me your take on the birds, four footed beasts and creeping things?

Just give it a whirl.

Jersey Girl

[_Roger Morrison]

Gaz, i'm in bold below:

You give an interesting commentary. To change the terminology of "Lust towards one another" to mean fighting and war was very odd.

I believe vs. 24-29 speak pretty plainly that homosexual activity is listed as a sinful nature, being lumped in with all of the other vices and ills mentioned.

As you see it... Being "lumped in", where in the spectrum of "vices" would You see "homosexual activity" being? Surely there are worse things in our World?? To take the Fundamentalist view seems to suggest a homosexual indivudual would have NO redeeming values. Is that Your view? Can You see equal association between Gays & Straights aside from sexual preferences?

You state:

Who cannot be aware of death? All die, the good, bad and the indifferent.

I think you missed this one in that what is being spoken of is spiritual death. You can take it to mean physical death and day of judgement as well, but to live after the manner of the flesh with corrupt lusts and corrupt views is to damn ones soul and die a spiritual death, cut off from the light and creative power that is God. They show themselves unworthy of bearing the creative force, and damn their eternal exiastence in the process.

I don't think i "missed" anything. I don't happen to understand "death" as You do. I don't happen to think every one who is physically-alive is really very spiritually-alive, and so are cut off from the light and creative power that is grated freely to ALL by "God".

Nor do i KNOW anything about a "day-of-judgement", except what has been said by folks who know no more than i do, but are believed by some who choose to believe what i choose not to. Which has absolutely no influence one way or the other on the reality of that supposition.

"Eternal existance" is another theological construct that serves little physical or spiritual human purpose, IMSCO. I respectfully suggest when the prejudicial scales fall from the eyes of homophobes they will see homosexuals as are seen heterosexuals with varying levels of every human trait, characteristic, strength, weakness as good neighbors or otherwise.

I think You will go well to re-read, assuming a first reading, of Spong's thoughts, and the accolades he received from both communities. Warm regards, Roger

[_Jersey Girl]

Lucretia

Jersey Girl is right about the way Mormons study scripture. Take an isolated passage and use it to support preconceived beliefs.

That has been my experience in online debate/discussion with most LDS I've encountered. Okay, let's rip the lid off this can of worms.

Using the Romans 1 verses as was done in this thread, is the same thing people do when they lift out Leviticus 18:22 and use that to condemn same sex relationships.

Why do they do that?

Can of worms officially opened.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey just said that to mess with me. We're friends, and friends take jabs at each other.

Gaz

Sometimes they wrestle each other to the mat and apply an impossible to break toe-hold.... wait, this is getting too sexual.

Only to a penguin wearing a fig leaf!

Jersey Girl

;-)

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Lucretia

Maybe Jersey Girl will share her study program of the Bible as well. It might be an interesting comparison.

Thank you.

I don't know exactly what you're asking me for here, Lucretia. Could you be more specific?

Jersey Girl

Well, I don't study the Bible myself so I'm getting out of my depth here. I got a good dose of Bible stories as a EV child, and as a Mormon I did read it all the way through once and read it randomly privately, and of course numerous church/seminary lessons, so I'm not a stranger to it but certainly no expert. You certainly have a different understanding than Gaz/Nehor (and I'm just saying their names because they have posted on this thread, not that they are ALL Mormons (cough). How do you study? With a group? With outside sources? Gaz/Nehor have surprised me a little that they do use some sources. I'm sure we all see what we look for in the Bible (I like to interpret it metaphysically), and there's no way there will ever be a concensus on what it means.

[_Roger Morrison]

Loran, i'll take your opening sentence as somewhat complimentary ;-) I'll inject in bold:

Some of this, I think, may have merit. Some is an exercise in sophistry and stunningly imaginative biblical exegesis that's difficult to get one's mind wrapped around. Let's take a look.



23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

RM: Would this include 'mental' "image(s)"? of "God"...like to corruptible man..."?

RM: thiis with a little tongue in LDS cheek. HOWEVER...

No. The anthropomorism in both the New Testament an Old Testament is, or should be, well beyond question. RM: i suppose from traditional unquestioners of biblical exegsis; but i am outside-the-box. "...changed...God into the image of man..." is exactly what was intoned by ancients (angry, jealous, finger) AND put into a physical/mortal/flesh&bone "God" (with body-parts & passion) by LDSism. This cannot be denied by the most apologetic of all LDS apologists! Can it?


24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

RM: Would that include over indulgence in material stuff that rusts? What about over-eating to a state of obesity when told in the WoW to avoid meats and unhealthy stuff to consume mostly veggies & fruits??

I can think of no reason whatsoever to impose that interpretation upon this verse. RM: "Think" a bit deeper, Bro. "...lust of their (our) own hearts..." takes US in many directions that are not in our best interest. Seemed the purpose of Christ's efforts as i read his "How-to-Live" messages. Not difficult to see evidence of lust/self-indulgence in "How-we-Live..."


25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

RM: Like having "Domion over the whole earth" and "the divine right of Kings" and "superiority of some races" and "the more valiant in another life are more deserving of good-stuff in this one" and "pain & suffering are for one's own good" and "secret oaths & covenants are THE keys to exaltation, franchised only to "God's" favoured..."????

Huh? RM: Try this: The "Truth of God" is still being discovered by thinking/inquisitive/feeling folks who can determine between biblical fact, fiction, fantasy & reality. What i listed above are falasies of Judeo-Christianism that have been traditionally accepted as OK things because they served our creature ignorance. While in fact dishonouring the Creator... The need for the, "Two New Commandments"!!


For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

RM: Would that have been Jacob's mom who favoured Jake over his brother and lied to her husband and conived to take what belonged to Essau?

No. This clearly has reference to homosexual practices. RM: I think the reference to women had to do with prostitution when viewed as you suggest.


27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

RM: Sounds a lot like warriors who leave home-&-hearth to kill in blood-lust and for the glory and spoils of battle... Man competing with man for honour and wealth: BOOTY!!

Beyond the sheer unintelligibleness ?? of this, the answer is no again. The above verse clearly has reference to homosexuality; in this case, male homosexuality. RM: Might be so...


28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

RM: Yep, sounds a lot like what makes for power, wealth, glory and the Celestial Kingdom where one increases status from mere man living by Christ's teachings of charity and serving the under privileged to Kingdoms and Glories unending...

When you get a decent hold upon LDS theology...and New Testament theology, lets revisit this sometime. RM: I think i have hold of those theologies. Particularly LDS--50 years. I just happen to view the application of them differently than you. The reprobate mind is nondenominational and leads many to lust after those things that are destructive of "God's" intent as taught by Jesus. As for LDS lust for God-hood... Could You explain that 'intelligibly' please?


29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

RM: Sounds like the dysfunctional world that most of us function in...with varying degrees of success...

Well, speak for yourself on a number of those. RM: I do, and for others who honestly see and understand issues that effect our functioning... dys--or otherwise ;-)


31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

RM: More dysfunction. Family violence. Child abuse. Spousal abuse. Social injustice. Exploitation. Aggressions. War--collateral damage. Generally speaking, man's inhumanity. Spoken against by all Spiritual leaders of humanity, including Jesus...

Yes, and so? RM: "And so," these issues are what should receive our remedial attention, here and now. Yearning for an after life in heaven with "God" et al really serves no mortal useful purpose, IMSCO.


Well, where else can this go?

Where ever you want to take it, Bro. But the thread topic has to do with public attitude towards homosexuals today. What is in debate, as i see it, is the attitude of ancients vs the attitude of moderns.

I choose to live by standards that are compatible with science and Jesus' philosophy, today. Many who represent Christianism, as Paul, were still in the time-warp of their traditions & ignorance. So be it, and not to THEIR fault.

"Fault" lies with those who remain in that ancient time-warp mind-set, and the dictates of uniformed, or misinformed, prelates who deny the higher laws and continue to foster prejudices, discriminations and injustices. Some of which have been corrected--slavery, public excecution--now we face the injustice of homophobia. That too will eventually be overcome by informed, conscienced citizenry... Warm regards, Roger



Warm regards, Roger

[_Gazelam]

As you see Eternal life, how does the relationship between homosexuals fit into that? Do you honestly see a homosexual lifestyle fitting in with a belief in Christ?

Can a man be saved when he/she is purposefully living a sinful life? Not typical day to day shortcomings, but dwelling with and living in a sinful state?

[_Bond...James Bond]

Do you honestly see a homosexual lifestyle fitting in with a belief in Christ?

Why not?

I believe Christ said that loving thy neighbor (along with honoring God) were the two most important commandments. Notice he didn't say love thy straight neighbor, but love thy neighbor...irregardless.

And it's not like Christ set the best example for how to live purely hetero lifestyle (considering he wasn't married and he hung around with a bunch of other guys).