Evidence of God

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi Nehor,

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. I know it's intimidating to cast your pearls where there be monsters, and I commend you for it.

-CK

[_Tommy]

JAK,

Why doest thou rebel against the Lord your God? I must recommend that you humble yourself, bend thy knee, and plead with a Just God for a remission of your sins.

[_Sethbag]

I don't believe in the Devil, or demons, or evil spirits out threatening our destruction, etc. I have my own little mental speculations about what Nehor might have experienced. Nehor was there, I wasn't, and even those who were there (other 3 missionaries) didn't know what he was experiencing, or what he felt he was experiencing.

I will only offer up the personal observation that there were times on my mission when, out of ethusiasm and an overly developed credulity developed through lots of prayer, lots of scripture reading, lots of conversations with my companion, lots of "drinking the Cool-Aid", etc. I think I could easily have felt there were things going on around and to me that I would have regarded as real, even if they weren't. That's my own personal observation. I have previously posted of a sense of forboding evil a particularly credulous, imaginative, and totally "into it" companion and I had (we fed off each other in this) due to a paper or cardstock cross hanging from the wall of an investigator's apartment. It only needed a focus for our inventive and very active imaginations (the cross), a reason to believe that this represented some clear and present evil (common Mormon folklore regarding the Church of the Devil and catholicism, and the use of crosses), and we totally felt the evil. Right down the shivers down our spine and so forth. I very clearly remember the dark sense of forboding, as if this cross represented an opening of sorts for the devil to have some kind of power or influence over this investigator. My companion and I both felt this, and agreed that the cross had to go. We asked the investigator for it, and ripped it up and threw it out after we'd gone.

Now, TBMs would have to agree with skeptics that this was probably "all in our heads", because there is nothing wrong with the cross, and the cross does not represent the Devil or give the Devil power or influence over anyone.

I am not saying this kind of thing is what happened to Nehor. I wasn't there. I wasn't in his head. I'm only giving an example from my own missionary experience that makes it seem plausible to me that he either imagined it, or had himself worked into such a state that the stimulus of the raging anti-mos (whom he must have regarded as servants of Satan) was all the focus he needed to think this was all going on and really believe it.

Other than offering this personal story of my own and how it plays into my thoughts regarding what Nehor has posted, I will offer no other criticism of what he has posted, and I will salute him for posting it, and recognize that the experience is powerful to him, and not denigrate him for it.

[_marg]

On another thread I was asked to provide experiences that I believe were evidence that God exists. Before I begin I should make a few points.

A. These are not the main reasons I believe in and follow God.
B. I am leaving out the most dramatic and powerful experiences I have had since I do not want them mocked.

Who asked you to provide your personal experiences? JAK didn't. And Mercury responded to your claim to JAK which I will quote and then underline " You (JAK) can show evidence after evidence that it (reason) does work. I can show you evidence after evidence in my life that God works but you will still discount it as an assertion." The implication being that your evidence was as good as JAK's. You didn't seem to appreciate that JAK gave examplies which are open to objective evaluation and can be confirmed even by yourself. Mercury's partial response to you was "Why don't you start a thread wherein you state several of your evidentiary claims for god?" But Mercury also stated "Your "evidence" for gods existence can be VERY easily explained away."

So there was no need for you to give your personal experiences for why you believe a God exists. You have not presented evidence of God which has merit, which is what was requested by JAK and Mercury. Evidence to have merit and assumed reliable requires that it be open to objective critical assessment and verification.

[_truth dancer]

I appreciate that people, the world over have fabulous spiritual experiences. I have had many!

What I struggle with however is the idea that because a particular person has a particular experience, that they have somehow discovered the real God, or the one and only true religion, as if they experience and those of their friends are the only true spiritual experiences.. (or the right ones, or the best ones, or whatever).

The fact is, there are billions of people the world over having all sorts of spiritual experiences that conflict ,even deny what Christians or LDSs experience.

The world is filled with folks having miraculous visions, healings, revelations... and they are not consistent with each other. Mormons do not typically experience past lives, Buddhists may not feel healed by St Francis, Christians may not see Buddha during a NDE.

Why so many think their experiences are the only ones that are true, or the ones that "really" describe God, or the ones that have the real power and authority of God, is beside me.

And then.... the world is also filled with millions of folks who have amazing experiences (spontaneous healings, astral traveling experiences, intuitive coincidences, etc. etc.) who do not even believe in God.

In sum, it seems that spiritual experiences, as real as they may seem to us, may not be the best way to discover objective reality, or even God, (unless one goes with the idea that God is the creation of humankind).

:-)

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

On another thread I was asked to provide experiences that I believe were evidence that God exists. Before I begin I should make a few points.

A. These are not the main reasons I believe in and follow God.
B. I am leaving out the most dramatic and powerful experiences I have had since I do not want them mocked.

Who asked you to provide your personal experiences? JAK didn't. And Mercury responded to your claim to JAK which I will quote and then underline " You (JAK) can show evidence after evidence that it (reason) does work. I can show you evidence after evidence in my life that God works but you will still discount it as an assertion." The implication being that your evidence was as good as JAK's. You didn't seem to appreciate that JAK gave examplies which are open to objective evaluation and can be confirmed even by yourself. Mercury's partial response to you was "Why don't you start a thread wherein you state several of your evidentiary claims for god?" But Mercury also stated "Your "evidence" for gods existence can be VERY easily explained away."

So there was no need for you to give your personal experiences for why you believe a God exists. You have not presented evidence of God which has merit, which is what was requested by JAK and Mercury. Evidence to have merit and assumed reliable requires that it be open to objective critical assessment and verification.

They misunderstood if they thought I was going to 'prove it' to them. I thought I made that clear in the opening post.

JAK's dismissals of God do not seem to make much sense to me and if they followed his rules many of the great discoverers would never have made any headway. Galileo held to his theory despite the Copernican model having fewer abnormalities within it. Why? Gut feeling? Later it was found out he was right. Most new discoveries come about because a genius has a realization and in the face of all odds sets out to prove it.

God is different from these things in that I do not set out to prove it; I set out to live it. The more I live it the more evidences pop out in my life like the ones I described. Those are also very peripheral ones. I left out the most concrete ones because I am a coward. I do not want them mocked because I worry this will lead me to become angry.

[_The Nehor]

I appreciate that people, the world over have fabulous spiritual experiences. I have had many!

What I struggle with however is the idea that because a particular person has a particular experience, that they have somehow discovered the real God, or the one and only true religion, as if they experience and those of their friends are the only true spiritual experiences.. (or the right ones, or the best ones, or whatever).

The fact is, there are billions of people the world over having all sorts of spiritual experiences that conflict ,even deny what Christians or LDSs experience.

The world is filled with folks having miraculous visions, healings, revelations... and they are not consistent with each other. Mormons do not typically experience past lives, Buddhists may not feel healed by St Francis, Christians may not see Buddha during a NDE.

Why so many think their experiences are the only ones that are true, or the ones that "really" describe God, or the ones that have the real power and authority of God, is beside me.

And then.... the world is also filled with millions of folks who have amazing experiences (spontaneous healings, astral traveling experiences, intuitive coincidences, etc. etc.) who do not even believe in God.

In sum, it seems that spiritual experiences, as real as they may seem to us, may not be the best way to discover objective reality, or even God, (unless one goes with the idea that God is the creation of humankind).

:-)

~dancer~

I agree with you but (and I have only my own experience to rely on here) I in a sense can tell the strength of a Spiritual experience and aim for the stronger ones. I've had experiences while worshipping with others in a mosque and in a cathedral but I can tell the strength in degrees. Again, this may be just me.

[_Blixa]

Nehor:
"JAK's dismissals of God do not seem to make much sense to me and if they followed his rules many of the great discoverers would never have made any headway. Galileo held to his theory despite the Copernican model having fewer abnormalities within it. Why? Gut feeling? Later it was found out he was right. Most new discoveries come about because a genius has a realization and in the face of all odds sets out to prove it."

I think what you are talking about here is intuition, not something supernatural. Intuition has long been recognized as a crucial part of scientific inquiry, although if intuition isn't tested rigorously against observations it is worthless. Relentlessly putting ideas to the test is what sets science apart from other modes of inquiry.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Nehor... :-)

I agree with you but (and I have only my own experience to rely on here) I in a sense can tell the strength of a Spiritual experience and aim for the stronger ones. I've had experiences while worshipping with others in a mosque and in a cathedral but I can tell the strength in degrees. Again, this may be just me.

With all due respect this is like saying the Dali Lama can tell how spiritual are the experiences of Mormons by visiting Sacrament Meeting. :-)

I mean seriously Nehor. :-)

Of course YOUR personal experiences are going to be stronger as you embrace your personal faith and beliefs. Just like some spiritual masters will see the LDS ideas as illusion or unaware or unenlightened. Humans tend to embrace the familiar and known.

Perhaps the limitations of your spiritual experiences have to do more with you than with God....

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

And by the way, keep in mind as you're defending Scratch, one of the most vicious, mendacious anti-Mormon demagogues I've ever run into either on the Web or in print, that what you tolerate and accept, you teach.

(from apocryphal account) After Peter won a debate against the Gnostic Apostate Simon the people arose in a clamor ready to kill or beat Simon for his blasphemy and Peter calmed them down saying it was not their right to make such a decision. Simon was in God's hands and if he wanted Simon killed or beaten or humiliated or cast down he was perfectly capable of doing it himself and didn't need our help.

If Scratch or anyone else is your or my enemy (which I am not sure of) then we are under orders to do good to him. I remember no proviso in Christ's sermons that they only applied to those you like or those who do not actively oppose you. I now read the end of the Book of Mormon much differently than I used to. When the Nephites were engaged in their final wars they were convinced of the rightness of their cause and villified their enemies. They had no time to repent, there was a war on. They were the good guys, the lamanites were the bad guys. And in the beginning they might have been more good. However they let their hate and spite and vengefulness rule them and became equals in cruelty.

On my Mission I was what was known as a Bible-basher for some time. I was pretty good at it. I found though that it was turning me into a demagogue and crushing my ability to feel goodwill towards my fellow-man.