Joseph Smith and Chairman Mao

[Guest]

Deleted

[_moksha]

Both led long marches – Joseph Smith led the Mormon Battalion, etc and Mao Ze Dong led the “Long March” campaign.

Music is an important propaganda technique – compare the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to the Chinese Communist choirs

Education is controlled – independent thinking is forbidden.

When you are on a roll, it is best not to let either accuracy or reality get in your way!

[Rad]

Brother Knowlton,

I can understand why you are troubled by the similarities between President Smith and our communist dictator from the East. But there is a simple resolution. Open up your heart and I shall edify thee with the truth.

As you might know, an anti-Christ isn't merely one who opposes Christ's work, but opposes him by trying to take his place. Hence, you might recall a scene from a particular movie which I'm under a very binding oath not to discuss. A servant of the lord wears a particular kind of fashionable outfit. And, in this film, the adversary doesn't oppose the Lord by wearing torn jeans and a t-shirt silkscreened with a monster truck, but by wearing the exact same outfit in a different color scheme. If God decides to have a pet bird, and it's a white dove, then the devil does't run to the pet store and buy a snake, but adopts himself a bird as well, a black raven. If God gives us a temple, Satan steals from it and gives us masonry.

Mao Ze Dong clearly studied the life of Joseph Smith and used this powerful knowledge to create an unholy order. If communism is a false priesthood, then the priesthood is the true communism. As a friend of mine might say, settle that one in your heart!

[_Coggins7]

Note: this may get personal, and it may get flaming hot. So be prepared. I will try to maintian my composure throughout. But I make no promises.

Both were charismatic founders – Joseph Smith was very revolutionary and attracted many followers. Later many top church leaders and his family turned against him due to more eccentric behavior and personal lust for power. Mao Ze Dong attracted followers by the hundreds of thousands and later was betrayed by his wife, close friends etc. One of his leading generals even tried to assassinate him (Lin Biao)

And, in spite of the fact that Joseph Smith was a poor, semi-literate, uneducated farm boy and Mao received an education in the Chinese classics and then went on to complete a modern, comprehensive education, what other irrelevant points of similarity are there? Oh, let's see...

Both followed closely the principle of ‘unite the power of the people’ – Mao Ze Dong made millions of Chinese crazy with communistic revolutionary principles as they destroyed their ancient and precious culture and killed each other during the Culture Revolution. Joseph Smith united both poor and rich alike through his universal, all encompassing, comprehensive religion. More people/members means more power.

I don't recall Joseph ever making any such statement of principle, and even if he had, are you claiming he would have meant by it what Mao meant by it? You say that Mao drove the Chinese crazy with Communist ideology, and yet in your other post you claim that the Chinese are content under Communist rule. Would you like to have this both ways knowlten?
The Chinese didn't "kill each other" during the Cultural Revolution. Clever. The Chinese people were killed by their government and by the Red Guards, a government sponsored gang of politically correct thugs who went throughout the country enforcing correct revolutionary consciousness by force. The Chinese people weren't killing each other in some kind of civil war of all against all.

Both led long marches – Joseph Smith led the Mormon Battalion, etc and Mao Ze Dong led the “Long March” campaign. Later there were long exoduses by BY with the pioneers.

Another utterly irrelevant comparison. I couldn't think of two more divergent historical phenomena than the Long March and the movement of the Saints into the west.

Both were poor farmers who tutored themselves, gained public support and used their devoting masses to bring about their ambitions. Today they are worshipped as Gods. (Mao became a Buddhist God while Joseph Smith is the JC of the Mormons).

This is a flat footed falsehood regarding Joseph Smith. Please go over to Recovery From Mormonism and foist this one off. I don't know about Mao, although I doubt too many Buddhists, who were tormented under Mao's rule, would want to worship him (The Tibetan Buddhists in particular, who saw the Chinese attempt a final solution in their country during the Cultural Revolution, would be, it would seem, hard pressed to revere this monster).

Both had a book which was worshipped as doctrine – Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon and Book of Commandments (D&D) which were recited constantly and used as a cornerstone of Mormonism. Mao Ze Dong wrote his “Little Book of Quotations (the red book)” and students studied it and only it daily in school (it was the only textbook you could study). If you didn’t carry it properly when in public you could have been shot.

You're right about the Little Red Book, at least in the sense that that is what the Communists of the time would have liked. As far as the scriptures go, where are earth are you getting these whoppers from? Some people lose credibility while they're here knowlten. You're may be one of the only ones to have lost it before you got here.

Both focused on imaginary enemies to put the people in fear and gain their support – Joseph Smith, BY and all the presidents until today have blamed non Mormons and Babylon as evil and devilish. Mao painted Western countries (somewhat accurately) as Imperial Capitalist Monsters (who were really only paper tigers).

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Both Joseph Smith & BY and Mao fought against the current government of their times. Joseph Smith fought against America and Mao fought against the Nationalist Party, which was later beaten and relocated in Taiwan.

The United States government fought against the early Saints, they were not fighting against anybody. Mao fought Chiang Kai Shek for dominance in China after the Japanese had been defeated, in a bid for political supremacy.

How on earth much more irrelevancy can their be? Let's find out, shall we...


Mormonism and Communism

They both offer the answers to all of life’s problems through giving up everything (your self esteem, will, and soul) to a centralized authoritarian regime.

This is sheer nonsense. The LDS Church has no such doctrines, teachings, or philosophy. Communism, absolutely.
There is no centralized, authoritarian regime in the Church. We vote to sustain our leaders and they lead by the consent of the led, unlike Socialism. Nothing is given up to any Church. We give our selves to Christ, and seek to have our wills "swallowed up" in his. The Church has no political, economic, or personal power over me. The worst they can do, if I lapse morally to a great enough extant, is separate me from that organization.

Marriages were decided by centralized authority – the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) decided marriages even until the 1980’s! Local leaders of SOE (State Owned Enterprises) had to give their permission for marriage even until the late 90’s. In Mormonism, church leaders decided on marriages and fought over young women to be their polygamous wife. Now wives are decided by “temple worthiness” or obedience to the rules.

This is incoherent. There are too many apples and oranges here to separate out. Mormons marry precisely who they want to and nobody else. What on earth....



Both Mormonism and Communism controls behavior through open public means. In China before during the Cultural Revolution, every word that you said, the color of your clothes was under scrutiny. Music, art, opinions and your very thoughts were monitored. My University Professor told me when she was a girl she almost got arrested because she was wearing a dress…and it had POLKA DOTS, which of course were a sign of imperial arrogance and she had to run home and change them immediately.

This part about China is correct.

Mormonism uses “obedience” or outward conformity to many rules as a way to judge inward righteousness and integrity. It is easy to judge and benchmark the “righteous” because everything is based on external superficial behavior. The Word of Wisdom, temples and church attendance, dress, grooming, etc are all easily monitored. How many times have you heard about people being denounced and publicly attacked for failure to conform? It happens all the time in Mormonism (often subtle and spitefully).

To plumb the depths of this individuals ignorance of LDS doctrine, teaching, history, and culture would be a monumental undertaking, something on the order of The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution. At one and the same time, while we don't teach that outward conformity is a sure sign of inward spirituality, that knowlten thinks that behavior is not indicative of inner mental states, attitudes, and orientation toward the Gospel, or anything else, is rather interesting. I find it difficult to accept as well, his implications that outward behaviors, especially those such as grooming, dress, and the keeping of the word of wisdom (avoiding drug use and drug dependence being one major facet of that principle) are "superficial" Temple attendance is "superficial" in the LDS church?

I'm being beamed up and Scotty's drunk again. This could take a while.

Music is an important propaganda technique – compare the Mormon Tabernacle Choir to the Chinese Communist choirs – they both use groups of individuals to arrogantly and melodramatically sing about past triumphs and benevolent leaders who ‘led’ the people and ‘united’ the people.

knowlten, pardon me but...I'm really beginning to think that you''re a couple cans short of a six pack. You're a few quarts short of a full crankcase. You've got too many kibbles and not enough bits. There are splinters in the windmills of your mind. Are you freakin' serous about this stuff?

Songs during the Cultural Revolution include “I’m a Red Soldier of Mao” (the red soldiers murdered millions of Chinese during the revolution) “I love Beijing and Tiananmen” (Tiananmen – where thousands of protesting university students were murdered and run over with tanks).

knowlten...in your other post, you justified this action and Deng's conduct during this episode. I didn't actually understand until this moment that silly putty could be a drug of abuse.

Communists took traditional Chinese music (very soft and beautiful) and manipulated it into march like blaring songs of the glorious Party. Mormons took traditional European/American classical and spiritual music and rewrote it for themselves. Hymns like “follow the prophet” “I hope they call me on a mission” indoctrinate and manipulate children.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....

People are used to spy on each other. Even today in China everybody spies on you – as a foreigner you get so annoyed with being daily harassed about what you are doing, where you are going and who you are seeing. The Communists used children, family, friends and strangers during the Revolution to spy on each other – remember, by spying and betraying loved ones you are working for the glory of the party! Mormonism also subtly encourages members to spy and talk behind backs or turn the person it. Missionaries must be followed 24 hours a day by someone to spy on you. You must be married to a fellow Mormon – and spend all of your time with family and friends (all Mormon) who encourage “appropriate” behavior and thinking. As in China before and Mormonism now: you are rarely alone and always surrounded by others who know what’s best for you.

You are either a liar of Edward Decker proportions, or in need of in patient counseling. This is...oh man...

Property was in the hands of leaders – the Communist state during the Cultural Revolution and many years later controlled all private property (now everybody can own property of course) In Mormon history there were things like the United Order and what not that had collective property. If you are bad and disobey you will be punished by having no where to live or getting kicked out.

Socialism and the United Order have nothing whatever in common. Keep going knowlten, but I prefer not to ride a wild horse until if foams.

Extreme birth control is enforced – Mao famously said “more babies equal more power”. The church also enforces mass birth to make more Mormons and train them in the right way. Now the Chinese govt. has wisely (under Deng Xiao Ping in 1979) enforced a one child policy. This is very wise and is good for China’s future. The Mormons have never followed this wise policy and never will.

Now, finally, we find one principle, forced population control, that knowlten likes and thinks the Church should emulate. Apparently, our intrepid author is utterly uninformed about the birth dearth that is upon most western societies (and significantly, upon Japan), that well within our lifetimes is going to cause very serious economic dislocations. Any surprises here?

Education is controlled – independent thinking is forbidden. The Communists even until today strictly control the education – students go to school at the age of 4 until 30 years old. They go 6-7 days a week 14 hours per day. There are constant tests to be taken. There are also mandatory military drills every year for middle school students to college
Mormons have their own indoctrination (every Sunday, Family Home Evening, Seminary, etc that teach only church approved doctrines and limited information). Mormons encourage education but the subjects must be interpreted and understood through accepted Mormon theory.

PUT DOWN THAT SILLY PUTTY KNOWLTON!!!


snipped more mind numbing gibberish...

In Animal Farm it was said “all animals are created equal but some are better than others” –Communist leaders controlled everything before: they had economic, political, and social power. Now they are mostly corrupt businessmen who outwardly “serve” the state while inwardly steal money, get kickbacks and support their own personal companies. If you want to get ahead you must make “guanxi” or have a relationship with a leader. In Mormonism leaders are spiritually superior and holy. They control and micromanage members lives. Everything you say, do, wear, eat, and think are subject to their scrutiny and control. This causes a struggle for leadership as members (of the Party and Mormonism) fight for leadership positions. They must be hypocritical and superficial in order to do this; always appear righteous and good.

The quote, knowlton, is that "all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others". The claim that we hold our leaders as spiritually superior is a lie. The claim that they micromanage the lives of members is a lie. There is no fighting for leadership positions in the Church. You don't understand how the Church is structured and organized. What is there that you do understand knowlten?

Snip gibberish...

In Mormonism, in a way, personal spirituality is considered wrong. Righteousness, commandments, and rules are decided by leaders for you – they tell you what is wrong and you can’t listen to your conscious or follow the natural spiritual desires of your heart. Your spirituality in Mormonism is a predetermined package of rules and rituals. If you have a different opinion then you are evil.

[/quote]


After having told these kind of fantastic lies about the LDS Church, its leaders, and its people in public, your moral, as well as intellectual credibility is finished. Some here are going to side with you, but only the most immature and extreme. Actually, this is a very fine example of what the anonymity of the Internet brings out of the woodwork in other areas as well.

Its funny because China now is pretty safe and stable – people are free to offer their opinions and do their own thing (you wouldn’t know this by watching the news about China in America). People are free to go to church and its very capitalist. It’s sad because even the Communists of today have outdone the Mormon church.

Keep up the charade. China is free? Free to go to church? Whose payroll are you on knowlton, or are you actually, really, truely as intelletually disabled as this makes you appear?

I've never been nearer profanity in this forum that at this point.

[Guest]

Deleted

[_Coggins7]

Coggins7 I think you are over reacting a little, calm down! I am simply comparing the ideology and events in a symbolic way. Of course they can't be interpreted literally. Mormonism is a far cry from Communism. I only offer an alternative opinion - one influenced and educated by native Chinese people. I, along with Chinese people, despise Communism as a corrupt political institution.

Have you ever actually been to China?

Now the backtracking comes. It was only symbolic. Just kidding.

OK.

[Guest]

Deleted

[_Mister Scratch]

There is no backtracking. What I wrote is a symbolic representation. I often talked with Chinese students and scholars about the similarities between religions, political institutions, etc. Most Chinese distrust religion and political institutions. This is reflected in my own opinions. As a teacher I am used to honestly and opening comparing different ideas nonjudgementally for an interesting discussion. I believe in respecting other people's opinions and learning from them, which is one of the reasons I lived abroad for many years.

I am interested where you learned about modern Chinese culture and society. Again, have you ever actually been to China?

C'mon, gknowlton---you are wasting your time. Virtually the entire corpus of Coggins's education has been culled from the Internet. Sure, he may occasionally pick up an actual, real-live book, but you can bet that he has never been in a real-life setting (such as a university) where he would be forced to confront "other people's opinions and learn [...] from them"---let alone treat them with respect. He thinks that book learnin', or, more accurately, Innernet learnin' is all he needs, and that being "nonjudgmental" is a sign of liberal weakness.

[_Coggins7]

There is no backtracking. What I wrote is a symbolic representation. I often talked with Chinese students and scholars about the similarities between religions, political institutions, etc. Most Chinese distrust religion and political institutions. This is reflected in my own opinions. As a teacher I am used to honestly and opening comparing different ideas nonjudgementally for an interesting discussion. I believe in respecting other people's opinions and learning from them, which is one of the reasons I lived abroad for many years.

I am interested where you learned about modern Chinese culture and society. Again, have you ever actually been to China?

Knowlton, you made a long series of comparisons and contrasts between Mormonism and Communism, and between Joseph Smith and Mao Tse Tung, that are utterly and unequivocally beyond belief. Now you say these comparisons were only a "symbolic representation", which means precisely what? Did you take your own claims and propositions seriously, or was the entire thing purely rhetorical, and if so, what was the point.

To answer your question, no, I've never been to China. However, as I began studying Shaolin Martial arts as a teenager, I got to know Chinese people, and over the years, mostly because of my love of and fascination with Chinese culture, philosophy, and martial arts, I've taken an interest in getting to know Chinese people I meet during the normal activities of life. Over the last 15 or so years, my wife and I have become friends with the owners of almost every Chinese restaurant we've patronized in several states in which we lived(indeed, it was the son of the owner of one in Kissimmee Florida who first told me Jacky Chan's real Chinese name). We knew their kids, talked about Chinese food, culture, and language, and we've always enjoyed that. My wife's present Chiropractor here in Lancaster is from the Mainland, and comes from a family of doctors and traditional practitioners going back some 300 years into Ching times. Most of these people were from the mainland, and a few were from Hong Kong. In no case did I ever sesne that there was any love lost between themselves and the government of their homeland. Indeed, that's why they were here.

I disagree with you about the Chinese as a so called "collective" people. Its true that they are a less individualistic people than westerners (but this statement must be made with some provisos) in some senses, as are the Japanese. Its also true that they have always been an entrepreneurial people, a pragmatic and down to earth people, and a people filled with individual creative genius and dynamism, as their food, arts, music, and hundreds of unique styles of martial arts attests.

The collectivism under which they now labor is that of an utterly alien foreign philosophy imported from Germany and France that has, as far as my study of Chinese history is concerned (which is not a substantial as I'd like, I admit. I've spent much more time with their philosophy than their history), has no natural affinity to Chinese culture, attitudes, or traditional values. Indeed, Mao knew, as did Ho and Pol Pot, that that traditional culture needed to be completely wiped out for Socialism to succeed as a political and social model.

Your fantastic beliefs about the Church are another matter entirely.