Scratch, why don't you go get some plastic explosives, put them down your pants, and blow yourself.
Sorry Nehor...
Tiananmen Square
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_Mister Scratch
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Coggins7 wrote:Scratch, why don't you go get some plastic explosives, put them down your pants, and blow yourself.
Sorry Nehor...
Is that the best you've got? You know, I have said before that I admire the gumption evident in your self education. I think that is really laudable. You are obviously fairly well-informed (even though the bulk of your information appears to be ridiculously biased); you claim to want legit debate; you claim to believe in Christ and the Church; you say that you have a sense of humor, etc., etc. So why is it that you continuously have to fall back on these kinds of insults? The only conclusion I can come to is that you are weak, and that you know, deep down, that your positions are flawed.
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_Coggins7
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Yes, that's all I've got and that's all you deserve. You can't or won't be serious or civil, so why bother. If you ever, ever develop beyond the intellectual and moral larval stage your stalled in at this point, perhaps you will be able to join the wonderful world of the life of the mind with some of the rest of us.
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_Coggins7
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This is intriguing. Nowhere in your source does it say that the Chinese government "ordered a massacre." This source says that they "called on the People's Liberation Army to restore order", much like, one imagines, the guardsmen at Kent State.
You're right. The source says the Chinese government ordered the "use deadly force against the demonstrators". Stop trying to play semantic games with me Scratch, its demeaning to both of us and the subject at hand. There's no evidence the Kent State soldiers were ordered to do anything. One of them panicked and fired, and others followed him.
The fact still remains that your comparison is utterly fatuous.
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_Coggins7
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i
Come on Scratch. I only fall back on outright insults like that once to every twenty of thirty of yours. I wonder when rc is going to get tired of your baiting and spleen venting?
s that the best you've got? You know, I have said before that I admire the gumption evident in your self education. I think that is really laudable. You are obviously fairly well-informed (even though the bulk of your information appears to be ridiculously biased); you claim to want legit debate; you claim to believe in Christ and the Church; you say that you have a sense of humor, etc., etc. So why is it that you continuously have to fall back on these kinds of insults? The only conclusion I can come to is that you are weak, and that you know, deep down, that your positions are flawed.
Come on Scratch. I only fall back on outright insults like that once to every twenty of thirty of yours. I wonder when rc is going to get tired of your baiting and spleen venting?
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_Mister Scratch
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Coggins7 wrote:This is intriguing. Nowhere in your source does it say that the Chinese government "ordered a massacre." This source says that they "called on the People's Liberation Army to restore order", much like, one imagines, the guardsmen at Kent State.
You're right. The source says the Chinese government ordered the "use deadly force against the demonstrators". Stop trying to play semantic games with me Scratch, its demeaning to both of us and the subject at hand. There's no evidence the Kent State soldiers were ordered to do anything. One of them panicked and fired, and others followed him.
The fact still remains that your comparison is utterly fatuous.
The comparison may not be the absolutely best and most illuminating one out there, but I think it successfully illustrates my point, which is that you were engaging in hyperbole when you claimed that the Chinese government "ordered a massacre." There are no "semantic games" being played here. We rely upon words to communicate meaning as clearly and truthfully as possible. Thus, it's important to be accurate. The moral of this story is: be wary of hyperbole, my friend.
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_Coggins7
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The comparison may not be the absolutely best and most illuminating one out there, but I think it successfully illustrates my point, which is that you were engaging in hyperbole when you claimed that the Chinese government "ordered a massacre."
Not according to any serious sources, including the one I used, that I'm aware of. Deng and Li Peng ordered the military to use deadly force on thousands of peaceful student demonstrators. I would describe such use of force as a "massacre" You are playing semantic games, and your point is meaningless.
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_qknowlton
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I hate to keep on posting about this pointless topic, but I can't help it. I think Mister Scratch is right about your faulty sources. Instead of quoting prejudiced anti-Chinese Americanized political sources why don't you find documented evidence from people who actually participated in Tian An Men? The only "evidence" used in America is usually gained from bitter Chinese outcasts (who of course were persecuted for their beliefs).
Of course Tian An Men was a terrible event but Chinese people aren't bothered too much by it. If you had actually ever been to China you would know that Chinese people hate the American government more than they hate their own. Own course they are brainwashed in school and through the government controlled media but they mainly pay attention to the atrocities committed by America during certain wars.
I used to do classes where Chinese college students and businessmen debated about historical events – it was called the “what if” debate. Every time I asked about things like Tiananmen, Mao, etc the students would shake their heads and say it was a terrible even but necessary for keeping China united. “If” certain events (although tragic) didn’t happen perhaps China would be divided and in total chaos. Free thinking Chinese always agreed on that fact. Chinese people care about maintaining their countries boundaries and integrity more than anything else.
Every day as a expat in China you will face the accusations of "massacring" helpless Middle Easterners. Students will publicly insult and argue with you about how Hussein was an angel and American's are devils. They have their own opinions about foreign policy and political history and arguing with them won't change it. I never once heard any educated person complain about the horrible Tian An Men incident. They focus on current world wide events. But what would you do if you were in China and had everybody cursing you instead of supporting your opinion? You try and pull “but your government killed students before, but….but…” and you will get slammed and they will verbally kick the crap out of you. That is the reason why most self righteous foreigners can’t survive in China: Chinese people have their own opinions and they are very respectful of other people but they don’t tolerate outsiders telling them their own history. They lived it and they know it. Most of my opinions, as I have stated, were taught to me by students, businessmen and professors – they are the true masters of Chinese history.
Besides this, every event in history is subjected to interpretation by different viewpoints but no one viewpoint is ultimately correct. If you actually had studies Chinese Philosophy (not Americanized Chinese Philosophy) you would understand the concept of "shi fei shui neng fen de qing?" It means wrong and right are impossible to define because everybody's personal perspective carries prejudice.
Coggins7, you obviously didn't know that the "peaceful student demonstrators" murdered police who were trying to keep the peace. Didn't know that did you? But you say, you are an ignorant American who knows nothing about Chinese history. Well, I wasn't there personally but I have friends who were there at Tian An Men when it happened. They saw the students with their own eyes murdering police. It was ONLY after that that the army was called in. Why don't you call all the mainland Chinese who disagree with you liars and idiots? I simply repeated what was told to me and you freaked out.
Every real Chinese person knows that their history has been long and bloody and they are tired of it. The Chinese government does its best (unlike certain Western countries) to not interfere and attack other countries. Chinese people are eternally proud of the fact that their government does not interfere with other countries (even they still hate it for corruption, etc).
Of course there are humanitarian issues that are valid, but Chinese people don't care.
In the end, if you want to learn history you have to learn from primary sources. I believe it was Polybius or Herodutus that said history must be studied physically and through first hand accounts. Once you have put in your time in China perhaps you will understand China like it really is, not like you want it to be.
I am sure that you will post again and dissect everything that I said with pointless hyperbole, but my point is: if you don't speak the language, if you haven't lived in China, if you haven't studied in China, if you haven't read books in Chinese, if you haven't worked in China, if you haven't volunteered in schools and hospitals in China, if you haven't traveled to dozens of cities and provinces in China, if you haven't done business in China, if your family isn't Chinese....you real have no grounds to try and tell other people about China and it's history.
Of course Tian An Men was a terrible event but Chinese people aren't bothered too much by it. If you had actually ever been to China you would know that Chinese people hate the American government more than they hate their own. Own course they are brainwashed in school and through the government controlled media but they mainly pay attention to the atrocities committed by America during certain wars.
I used to do classes where Chinese college students and businessmen debated about historical events – it was called the “what if” debate. Every time I asked about things like Tiananmen, Mao, etc the students would shake their heads and say it was a terrible even but necessary for keeping China united. “If” certain events (although tragic) didn’t happen perhaps China would be divided and in total chaos. Free thinking Chinese always agreed on that fact. Chinese people care about maintaining their countries boundaries and integrity more than anything else.
Every day as a expat in China you will face the accusations of "massacring" helpless Middle Easterners. Students will publicly insult and argue with you about how Hussein was an angel and American's are devils. They have their own opinions about foreign policy and political history and arguing with them won't change it. I never once heard any educated person complain about the horrible Tian An Men incident. They focus on current world wide events. But what would you do if you were in China and had everybody cursing you instead of supporting your opinion? You try and pull “but your government killed students before, but….but…” and you will get slammed and they will verbally kick the crap out of you. That is the reason why most self righteous foreigners can’t survive in China: Chinese people have their own opinions and they are very respectful of other people but they don’t tolerate outsiders telling them their own history. They lived it and they know it. Most of my opinions, as I have stated, were taught to me by students, businessmen and professors – they are the true masters of Chinese history.
Besides this, every event in history is subjected to interpretation by different viewpoints but no one viewpoint is ultimately correct. If you actually had studies Chinese Philosophy (not Americanized Chinese Philosophy) you would understand the concept of "shi fei shui neng fen de qing?" It means wrong and right are impossible to define because everybody's personal perspective carries prejudice.
Not according to any serious sources, including the one I used, that I'm aware of. Deng and Li Peng ordered the military to use deadly force on thousands of peaceful student demonstrators. I would describe such use of force as a "massacre" You are playing semantic games, and your point is meaningless.
Coggins7, you obviously didn't know that the "peaceful student demonstrators" murdered police who were trying to keep the peace. Didn't know that did you? But you say, you are an ignorant American who knows nothing about Chinese history. Well, I wasn't there personally but I have friends who were there at Tian An Men when it happened. They saw the students with their own eyes murdering police. It was ONLY after that that the army was called in. Why don't you call all the mainland Chinese who disagree with you liars and idiots? I simply repeated what was told to me and you freaked out.
Every real Chinese person knows that their history has been long and bloody and they are tired of it. The Chinese government does its best (unlike certain Western countries) to not interfere and attack other countries. Chinese people are eternally proud of the fact that their government does not interfere with other countries (even they still hate it for corruption, etc).
Of course there are humanitarian issues that are valid, but Chinese people don't care.
In the end, if you want to learn history you have to learn from primary sources. I believe it was Polybius or Herodutus that said history must be studied physically and through first hand accounts. Once you have put in your time in China perhaps you will understand China like it really is, not like you want it to be.
I am sure that you will post again and dissect everything that I said with pointless hyperbole, but my point is: if you don't speak the language, if you haven't lived in China, if you haven't studied in China, if you haven't read books in Chinese, if you haven't worked in China, if you haven't volunteered in schools and hospitals in China, if you haven't traveled to dozens of cities and provinces in China, if you haven't done business in China, if your family isn't Chinese....you real have no grounds to try and tell other people about China and it's history.