"A Contradiction?" Thread 2

[_The Nehor]

I was on a lunch date earlier and I was thinking about the things that have been said here (yes, the date was that boring).

I've noticed two criticisms leveled against the Church:

1. There is a program of indoctrination and that the doctrine we teach dulls the mind due to the lack of thought involved. (I disagree with this one)

2. You can't pin us down on any doctrinal point and there is very little official doctrine. (I agree with this one)

Can these both be true? Can there be a program of indoctrination when there is so little declared doctrine to indoctrinate with?

[_grayskull]

Nehor,

What you're suggesting isn't unreasonable. But 98% of the time you've got to first distinguish between Chapel Mormons and Internet Mormons. Sunday School, Seminary, and the MTC are classical programs of thought indoctrination. Basically, the entire corpus of church curriculum is engineered for mind numbery. This has even been admitted by a certain famous apologist who helped develop some of these programs, and he boastfully declares he does not follow church curriculum in his classes save it be to establish the topic.

Chapel Mormons, including the prophets, seers, and revelators believe the church was restored for a reason and has doctrine. Inet Mormons believe church doctrine is established by whatever their hobby-horse area of interest for the week gives them mental fulfillment.

[_Coggins7]

What you're suggesting isn't unreasonable. But 98% of the time you've got to first distinguish between Chapel Mormons and Internet Mormons.

This is a very clever and useful fiction that began, apparently, on the Internet with non-chapel Mormons who don't go to church but spend a lot of time on the Web.

The rest is a baseless body of claims that has not the remotest connection to reality, as anyone in the Church who has been a part of any of these programs and community teaching gatherings could tell you.

How is Sunday School a "classical program of thought indoctrination"? As compared and contrasted to what? I was at church this past Sunday and noticed no such thing. How would the Gospel be taught in such a way that it would satisfy Greyskull's standards in that it could then be thought of as simply "teaching" and not "thought indoctrination"?

[_grayskull]

The rest is a baseless body of claims that has not the remotest connection to reality, as anyone in the Church who has been a part of any of these programs and community teaching gatherings could tell you

Brainwashees are the least able to identify their own indoctrination.

How is Sunday School a "classical program of thought indoctrination"? As compared and contrasted to what? I was at church this past Sunday and noticed no such thing.

See above.

How would the Gospel be taught in such a way that it would satisfy Greyskull's standards in that it could then be thought of as simply "teaching" and not "thought indoctrination"?

You teach people Chemistry.
You teach people how to tie their shoes.

But how do you "teach" fully grown adults that an industructable super-human has seeded planets without number throughout the universe and that humans on this seed-world are destined to transform into super-seeder gods by undertaking various exotic-garb rituals as revealed by a farm boy?

You can't teach otherwise sane adults that. You must indoctrinate those kinds of beliefs into them.

[_Coggins7]

The rest is a baseless body of claims that has not the remotest connection to reality, as anyone in the Church who has been a part of any of these programs and community teaching gatherings could tell you

Brainwashees are the least able to identify their own indoctrination.

Ahh yes, the classic closed loop of the conspiracy theorist. If you claim that Mormons are brainwashed, and a Mormon takes an opposing position, your response is that no Mormon is to be taken seriously when he defends his Church against this charge because...he's brainwashed you see; he becomes a perfect example of just what you're talking about just by challenging your claims.

As your claim here is immune from refutation, you've got quite a theory here. You win by default since no Mormon can ever be thought of as a sound witness for his own position. Good job, if your into the Tex Marrs thing.

How is Sunday School a "classical program of thought indoctrination"? As compared and contrasted to what? I was at church this past Sunday and noticed no such thing.

See above.

Answer the question.

How would the Gospel be taught in such a way that it would satisfy Greyskull's standards in that it could then be thought of as simply "teaching" and not "thought indoctrination"?

You teach people Chemistry.
You teach people how to tie their shoes.

But how do you "teach" fully grown adults that an indestructible super-human has seeded planets without number throughout the universe and that humans on this seed-world are destined to transform into super-seeder gods by undertaking various exotic-garb rituals as revealed by a farm boy?

You can't teach otherwise sane adults that. You must indoctrinate those kinds of beliefs into them.

Your problems here Greyskull, are purely psychological, not rational. You are not even attempting to follow the argument in a careful, reasoned manner.

[_Gazelam]

You teach people Chemistry.
You teach people how to tie their shoes.

But how do you "teach" fully grown adults that an industructable super-human has seeded planets without number throughout the universe and that humans on this seed-world are destined to transform into super-seeder gods by undertaking various exotic-garb rituals as revealed by a farm boy?

You can't teach otherwise sane adults that. You must indoctrinate those kinds of beliefs into them.

And how many convert baptisms were their last year?

[_Blixa]

How many of them were taught "meat?"

How many will remain active for more than a few months?

[_Yoda]

I was on a lunch date earlier and I was thinking about the things that have been said here (yes, the date was that boring).

I've noticed two criticisms leveled against the Church:

1. There is a program of indoctrination and that the doctrine we teach dulls the mind due to the lack of thought involved. (I disagree with this one)

2. You can't pin us down on any doctrinal point and there is very little official doctrine. (I agree with this one)

Can these both be true? Can there be a program of indoctrination when there is so little declared doctrine to indoctrinate with?

For what it's worth, I agree with you on both counts.

As far as indoctrination is concerned, although as you stated, there is very little official doctrine, there is a culture, and even a more fringe-based sub-culture which exists in Mormonism. Members of your Ward are encouraged to be looked upon as extended family. In order to be accepted by that extended family, you conform culturally. You follow the Word of Wisdom (no coffee, tea, alcohol), you pay your tithing, you only wear one earring, you don't date until you're 16, you go on a mission, you marry before finishing school, you have children right away.....the list goes on and on.

Are all of these things on my list doctrinal? No....but they are external markers of what a "good Mormon" looks like.

[_Yoda]

(Moderator Note)Since there are two threads on this topic, but they're going in slightly different directions, I'm keeping both threads up, and re-named this one "A Contradiction" Thread 2.

Nehor, since this is your thread, PM me if you would like to see a different title on this one, and I'll fix it for you.

[_grayskull]

How many of them were taught "meat?"

How many will remain active for more than a few months?

Yeah, and, let's make a few things explicit. Gaz asked his question as if a high number of converts equated to "teaching" rather than simple brainwashing. How many converts did Al Queda have last year? Were they "taught" or were they brainwashed?

While I don't know the current format for discussions, a few years ago the entire structure was one of brainwashing inductation. The "teaching" missionaries did was to establish the authority of scripture and then spoon-feed doctrines. To get them over humps such as new scripture, the "teaching" didn't get more rigorous, it transformed into singing hymns and praying. Can Gaz really tell us with a straight face that an "investigator" can read about 12 verses from the Book of Mormon, pray, and then "know" the whole thing is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and make a lifelong commitment? Is there any parallel on the planet to this kind of "teaching?"