A Contradiction?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Doctrine vs. (Nehor) Doctrine

Post by _JAK »

The Nehor wrote:That we suck at writing good teaching manuals I accept. Having taught many classes my standard method is to find out what is supposed to be taught and then toss the manual aside and teach mostly from the Scriptures. I remember DCP (I assume that's who you're referring to) saying he couldn't teach from a manual and he thought they were awful but I don't remember him saying he thought they were engineered to make people stupid.


Nehor,

Religious doctrine is designed to make people conformists and stupid.

A genuinely “good teaching manuals” would be educational not indoctrinational.

So if you want “good teaching manuals,” you don’t what them written by biased pro a religious bias people.

What you want are devices which control by indoctrination.

When you “...toss the manual aside and teach mostly from the Scriptures,” you, Nehor, apply your interpretation to the scripts. You abandon the dogma of your religious denomination. AND, you make it up to suit yourself.

Otherwise, you use the prescribed teaching of your religious group. You also tend to make people “stupid” in that you place your spin on the scripts you choose to emphasize.

JAK
_ajax18
_Emeritus
Posts: 6914
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:56 am

Re: A Contradiction?

Post by _ajax18 »

The Nehor wrote:I was on a lunch date earlier and I was thinking about the things that have been said here (yes, the date was that boring).

I've noticed two criticisms leveled against the Church:

1. There is a program of indoctrination and that the doctrine we teach dulls the mind due to the lack of thought involved. (I disagree with this one)

2. You can't pin us down on any doctrinal point and there is very little official doctrine. (I agree with this one)

Can these both be true? Can there be a program of indoctrination when there is so little declared doctrine to indoctrinate with? Thoughts?


I think it's just that different people have different complaints and things that bother them. The things that bother me are far different than what would bother most liberals and those seeking to further mainstream the Church. So maybe you're just hearing voices from both sides of the spectrum at the same time.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_grayskull
_Emeritus
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:36 pm

Post by _grayskull »

That we suck at writing good teaching manuals I accept. Having taught many classes my standard method is to find out what is supposed to be taught and then toss the manual aside and teach mostly from the Scriptures. I remember DCP (I assume that's who you're referring to) saying he couldn't teach from a manual and he thought they were awful but I don't remember him saying he thought they were engineered to make people stupid.


Nehor,

Of course he didn't say that! But isn't it enough to admit that the Lord's - the almighty God of all the Universe's - one and only true church on the face of the earth can't publish teaching materials that rise above the level of "awful"? Isn't that enough?

They are indeed engineered to numb brains, not necessarily make people stupid. See, the church figured something out a while back. A church full of intellectuals burried in books doesn't produce profits. Have you ever looked through priesthood manuals and Ensigns from the Fifties? They were indoctrinating, but not mind-numbing.

Let me direct you to what I'm trying to get at with an example. A teacher I had at BYU had taken a huge paycut having just left a prestigious business school. While he wasn't happy about the paycut, he was happy to be teaching undergrads rather than MBAs, who he claimed are the most intellectually disinterested cross-section of the planet. Not dumb, but intellectually disinterested. They usually don't give crap about theoretical models and difficult statistics, they care about cutting deals and making money. They're the ones that drive real business. The MBA is the standard by which today's brethren seek to model the Mormon. Organized and efficient movers. There doesn't need to be much thinking and doctrinal exegesis within that kind of group, just enough to keep everyone on the same page with the company vision and then it's off to work. And I don't fault them at all, as a profit-maximizing firm, from chosing this route. Book clubs don't build upperclass malls.

So yeah, the church's teaching is not geared towards intellectual satisfaction, and this is in its best interest. Those who deviate from the church's prescribed course of study are in fact working against the church's ultimate productivity.
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

Coggins7,

An essential for religion is “superficial knowledge of something.” Academic inquiry is most destructive to religion.


Upon what criteria do you support these assertions?


What particular religious persuasion is not particularly relevant. Religion exerts control by indoctrination. Opposite indoctrination, we have education. And, education is a clear enemy of religion.


I repeat the same question as for the above.


Now you state:
There is no such thing whatsoever as "unquestioning obedience" to church authority.

An unlikely case. Otherwise, “church authority” would cease to be “church authority.” As people question the official position of any institution, those people threaten the credibility of that institution. The more evidence the questioners bring to the table, the greater threat to “church authority.”


An unlikely case? Translation: you know nothing whatever about the structure, principles, and rules governing church organization, our concept of authority, or LDS epistemology as it relates to our own study and personal search for truth, following the leaders of the Church, and direct revelation. Knowing something of what your talking about is still, at least in my universe, are prerequisite for talking about it.

Your full of a great many assumptions grayskull, but you don't seem to have tested them much against other philosophies.


Any religious organization is only as influential as its doctrines and dogmas are imposed on the believers.


Baseless presumption. Nothing is "imposed" on anybody in the church, or in most churches for that matter. Upon what basis do you use the term "impose" to describe a Gospel Doctrine class?

Allowing believers their own interpretation invites decent. Thinking outside the box is not welcomed by religious organizations. It’s exactly why fractures occur and new groups or different groups are formed.


Are we going to discuss all religious organizations or the LDS church? In any case, personal interpretation and thinking outside the box is well accepted in the LDS church and always has been, except within the parameters of the core, fundamental doctrines of the Church. If you do not believe the Book of Mormon is a historical account involving real people and real events, or that Joesph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, or in the Plan of Salvation, then you will have a problem in any religious organization for which those tings are cardinal points.


Since Christianity is a most fractured religion as a result of contradictions in its scripts and differences in interpretations of its doctrines, more thinking or independent conclusions are factors which weaken the doctrines of any religious group.


That is true of Christianity. It is not true of the Restored Church.


Now you state:
No missionaries I've ever taught with have made any such claims as you are making. They've always told investigators to find out for themselves by studying the scriptures and asking God about the matter personally, not to take their word for it or Joseph Smith's.


’Im most skeptical of your claim. It would produce anarchy in religious doctrine to allow honest intellectual “find out for themselves...” They can conclude anything they like. They might even convert to Southern Baptist -- a strong Christian group with substantial numbers.

No organized religious group at the top of its controlling leadership wants serious freethinking or questioning.


You're clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying here, or your mental frame of reference is so radically different from mine that no discourse is really possible. You also just implied that I'm a liar, which I'm getting used to, amongst other things. You are correct. They can conclude anything they like. That involves the preeminence of the doctrine of free agency. Nobody in the Church cares about "anarchy" of interpretation. Those who are active in the Church are there because they want to be and are settled as to its truth. Those who are not can go on and believe what they please. What is the problem here?


I'd like to see some extended logical arguments to back up some of these broad generalities.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Thu May 24, 2007 1:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Re: A Contradiction?

Post by _The Nehor »

Mister Scratch wrote:Terrific questions, Nehor. "Official doctrine," as you are quite right to point out, is very, very difficult to pin down in the LDS Church. At its very root, the word "doctrine" means "teaching." Thus, anything that is authoritatively taught within the Church ought to be considered "official doctrine." But we all know that's not the case. For example, various reasons for the ban on Blacks on the priesthood were "taught," but how many of those are considered to be "official doctrine"? There is another level to this, too, which is the way these [un?]official teachings affect people's day-to-day lives, for example, the WoW. Is it "official doctrine" to not drink caffeinated beverages? Is it "official doctrine" to not wear two earrings?

In a sense, your first question vis-a-vis "official doctrine" reflects back on your first question about obedience. Part of the "unquestioning" obedience that one finds in the Church comes as a result of (in my opinion) ignorance. In fact, I would argue that at least some of the Brethren would prefer that the membership remain totally in the dark on some controversial subjects. And again, I think it is very important to remember that this obedience is achieved in very subtle ways. E.g., most TBMs talk about treating the leaders with "respect." But what this really means, from a more objective perspective, is that TBMs have thrown away their God-given right to question the authority of the leaders in any meaningful or public way. Of course, any good TBM with a background in apologetics will just say, "I haven't thrown away my right to criticize, I just *choose* not to criticize." Oddly enough, I have never, ever seen a TBM criticize any of the living Brethren. Is this really just "choice", on a massive, mob-mentality scale? Or is there something deeper at work?

So, to get back to your original point, (I.e., point #1), I would say that the "dulling of the mind," so to speak, comes not from a "program of indoctrination," but from ignorance, and from other socialized behaviors in the Church, such as a totalitarian unwillingness to question the Brethren, or even lesser leaders, as evidenced by the almost always unanimous sea of hands that are raised during sustaining votes.


While I accept the definition of teaching I find that most people don't mean that when they're talking about doctrine unless they're willing to defend every silly thing ever uttered in Church (I promised a friend I would take him to really nice $50 a plate Brazilian restaurant if we can get through a 3 hour block with nothing false said at any time....it's been 3 years now). When people say doctrine what I think they mean is beliefs that are accepted as rock-bottom truths held by all faithful members.

I would say that the earrings and the Word of Wisdom are counsel and not doctrine. If the latter counsel is not obeyed it's true that you cannot attend the Temple. The Word of Wisdom is temporary. The Lord said he would drink wine new in his Father's kingdom. He might bring some with him when he comes back. I don't think the earrings thing is a permanent command either like the Pauline dress standards we are all flouting. :)

The question about criticism is a good one. I have criticized the teachings of some of my leaders. I don't criticize the people themselves. For example several months ago a member of the High Council came to talk to my Ward. He gave a talk that I disagreed with...rather strongly. After the meeting I talked with him briefly and asked him a few questions about what he said. It mitigated some of what I disagreed with. That night I had a few friends over for dinner and we talked about what was said. One person agreed with him and the rest agreed with me. I have not done the things he said I should have. This is not new to me either. When I was growing up every Sunday my dad would ask all of us (all 7, it took a while) what we learned that day and we would discuss some of the Sacrament Meeting talks. We'd shoot some things down we thought were unsound and discuss how to use the rest of it. I do remember once a member of the family said that one of the speakers (a local leader) was an idiot. My father kindly but firmly corrected him and told him it was not his place to pass judgment on any individual or to demean anyone or their office.

Perhaps my experience is atypical though I knew many families that did something similar. I happen to think it's the right way to do it though.

In regards to "questioning the Brethren" I think that falls into two categories that should be considered separately:

First, there is the questioning of the decisions they make in regards to what actions the Church should take with a global effect (New Temples, Policies, Spending, Investment, Missionary Rules, Temple Standards, Our plans for World Domination in 2012). In this I have little to say and little to criticize. In this I trust my leaders to do what they're told or that God will move them out of their place if they get into too much trouble. The latter is more a matter of faith than anything else. If you don't believe God is at the helm I wouldn't trust a system built that way. I do think it is very efficient though and that if God is in overall control that the whole thing will glide on and the errors will be taken care of. Fallible men are the top working out their own salvation the same way I am. Mistakes will happen. In my experience they are rare. It sounds crazy to others but I just don't worry about it.

Second, there is the counsel and direction given directly to the members to help guide their life. The problem they are dealing with is giving counsel to a vast audience in vastly different circumstances and conditions. Also, Elder Scott has recently brought up again something Joseph Smith taught, that there is a general Plan of Salvation taught to the whole human race that includes the ordinances of the Gospel, the key portions of our Theology, and the Universal commands we are all living under as laid out in our canon. Then there is what the individual has to do which varies hugely between people. Most of what the Brethren teach is applicable in some way to my life. If not, I toss it. In a YSA Fireside Broadcast I attended the Apostle speaking said (paraphrased) that if you felt that his counsel did not apply to you than that was between you and God and please don't write him a letter explaining why you should be exempted. If you are concerned about it, talk to your Bishop. When hearing the Brethren and leaders giving me counsel I use utilitarian principles to separate the wheat from the chaff (that may be wheat to someone else). The exception is when the Spirit attends (quite often) and gives me guidance above and beyond what is said or (more rarely, but often enough) he tells me to chuck what they're saying and that something else will work better.

I also don't see unquestioning obedience in the Church. If you concentrate on the superficial, yes, most people keep the Word of Wisdom, attend their meetings, and feed the Missionaries. Many aren't reading and praying every day. Tithing percentages on the whole are not that good. There is still gossiping, lying, and people who just aren't dedicated enough to fast, pray, and meditate until they figure out what God wants them doing and do it. I'm struggling to get there and every time I do I have to struggle to stay there.

In my experience also those who REALLY believe that there is a God and are dedicated to acting on that knowledge become first-class thinkers, just not necessarily in an academic sense. When you're arguing secular philosophy you're generally playing with counters by comparison. When you have found God you then have to really think things through. You need to find out what God is like, what he wants you to be doing, what changes you need to make in your life, and what knowledge you need to search out to continue the journey.

To quote Joseph Smith (from the front of my scriptures):

"The things of God are of deep import; and time, and experience, and careful and ponderous and solemn thoughts can only find them out."

"Thy mind, oh man, must stretch as high as the utmost heaven." (speaking of how to achieve exaltation)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

2. You can't pin us down on any doctrinal point and there is very little official doctrine. (I agree with this one)


I don't.

The whole concept of doctrine verses "official doctrine" is a relatively recent apologetic innovation that was completely unknown to the early LDS Church. Try to dig up references to the phrase "official doctrine" prior to the 1970's. Do you really think Bruce R. McKonkie would have gotten away with publishing a book called "Mormon Doctrine" if there was ever such a distinction to begin with? Mormons wo try to distance themselves and teh Church from this book... what is their argument? That he didn't call the book "official Mormon doctrine"? Do you really think eye-witnesses to the King Follett discourse walked away thinking to themselves that none of what was just said was true doctrine of the Church, just because he didn't start the sermon with "I say through revelation in the name of Jesus Christ..."?

This apologetic argument that "that ain't official doctrine" simply won't hold water. There is plenty of critical doctrine in the temple you won't find anywhere written in the standard works or mentioned in conferences. Does that mean we can excuse ourselves from it because it is all just some guy's "opinion"?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

== While I accept the definition of teaching I find that most people don't mean that when they're talking about doctrine unless they're willing to defend every silly thing ever uttered in Church (I promised a friend I would take him to really nice $50 a plate Brazilian restaurant if we can get through a 3 hour block with nothing false said at any time....it's been 3 years now).

I think most people actually do believe this. The entire point of having a restored Church based on revelation is that you are not going to be led astray by its teachings. The prophet is not responsible for teaching 95% of what the Church actually teaches. If these teachings don’t have his signature of approval, by implication, then what’s the point of having a restored Church? It sounds like the apologists are admitting that LDS Sunday school is just as prone to teaching errors as are Evangelical Churches.

== When people say doctrine what I think they mean is beliefs that are accepted as rock-bottom truths held by all faithful members.

No, only those who are familiar with LDS apologetics argue that point. The rest of the Church makes no distinction between doctrine and official doctrine.

Remember the famous “when the prophets speak the thinking is done” phrase that was published many years ago? It wasn’t “rebuked” until people started complaining about it, particularly non-LDS who were using it as evidence that the Church was a mind-numbing cult. But this proves that this kind of belief really does exist in the Church and it resonates well with Mormons. Whether during my baptism, on my mission, or in whatever country, faithful LDS, in my experiences, tend to think like this.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

grayskull wrote:Nehor,

Of course he didn't say that! But isn't it enough to admit that the Lord's - the almighty God of all the Universe's - one and only true church on the face of the earth can't publish teaching materials that rise above the level of "awful"? Isn't that enough?

They are indeed engineered to numb brains, not necessarily make people stupid. See, the church figured something out a while back. A church full of intellectuals burried in books doesn't produce profits. Have you ever looked through priesthood manuals and Ensigns from the Fifties? They were indoctrinating, but not mind-numbing.

Let me direct you to what I'm trying to get at with an example. A teacher I had at BYU had taken a huge paycut having just left a prestigious business school. While he wasn't happy about the paycut, he was happy to be teaching undergrads rather than MBAs, who he claimed are the most intellectually disinterested cross-section of the planet. Not dumb, but intellectually disinterested. They usually don't give crap about theoretical models and difficult statistics, they care about cutting deals and making money. They're the ones that drive real business. The MBA is the standard by which today's brethren seek to model the Mormon. Organized and efficient movers. There doesn't need to be much thinking and doctrinal exegesis within that kind of group, just enough to keep everyone on the same page with the company vision and then it's off to work. And I don't fault them at all, as a profit-maximizing firm, from chosing this route. Book clubs don't build upperclass malls.

So yeah, the church's teaching is not geared towards intellectual satisfaction, and this is in its best interest. Those who deviate from the church's prescribed course of study are in fact working against the church's ultimate productivity.


If the Lord gave us better teaching manuals we'd ignore the Scriptures more than we already do.

The Church's purpose is to prepare people for eternity, not make money. Who is benefitting? The Brethren live well but they don't live extravagantly. We don't have stock holders to appease. Who is benefiting from this profit machine?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

I would say that the earrings and the Word of Wisdom are counsel and not doctrine. If the latter counsel is not obeyed it's true that you cannot attend the Temple. The Word of Wisdom is temporary. The Lord said he would drink wine new in his Father's kingdom. He might bring some with him when he comes back. I don't think the earrings thing is a permanent command either like the Pauline dress standards we are all flouting. :)



I perceive two problem here. One is that the word of Wisdom came by revelation and came with a number of quite serious and weighty promises associated with obedience to it, implying that disobedience will naturally forfeit those blessings or promises.

What we as Latter Day Saints want to know is what is true, whether it can be considered "official" doctrine or not. Artificial arguments over the nuances differentiating "counsel" from "doctrine" divert attention from the real issue, which is that we are to live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God", regardless of whether God gives it as advice, counsel, or "official" doctrine.

Second, the earring analogy is, I think, apples and oranges. The present counsel is for our present society. Paul's was for his, and we can flout those (customs of dress two thousand years ago in Palestine) at will just as we flout the entirety of the Law of Moses save for the Ten Commandments. I'm not at all sure either that the intent of the present counsel on dress and grooming has the same intent, or the same purpose, as did Paul's. Nor am I sure that Paul's was even intended to be understood as inspired. The present counsel clearly is, and is of long standing.
_guy sajer
_Emeritus
Posts: 1372
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:16 am

Post by _guy sajer »

Coggins7 wrote:
The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

By this I assume you mean Jesus Christ? Define "excessive" in relation to a church practice, doctrine, or commitment to the authorities of the Church.

‪Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.



This is partly true, but also mostly irrelevant, as these dynamics are true of many, if not most philosophies, ideologies, and organizations dedicated to a strongly held system of belief. There is nothing particularly "cultish" about any of these attributes. Charles Manson discouraged questioning, doubt, and dissent among his followers, as did Jim Jones. So do the Democratic and Republican parties. So does the Roman Catholic Church. So do metaphysical materialists like Carl Sagan or Richard Dawkins. I fail to see a salient point here.

And, as you know full well, or should if your going to critique the LDS faith, that dissent is only punished at the extremities, including when one takes his dissent into the public square and attacks and impugns the Church in that public square. That's quite different from private, personal dissent.


Well, that's why I cautioned not to take such lists too authoritatively.

That said, a true cult will manifest multiple of the listed characteristics. I just highlighted those two. You and others can decide the extent to which the Mormon Church conforms to the remainder.

Actually, there is plenty of open dissent in political parties. I'm not sure how you conclude they do not permit dissent. There is also much open dissent in the Catholic Church, although not necessarily the free wheeling dissent like you'll get in a politcal party.

Neither do I know how you've concluded that Dawkins and Sagan are authoritarians. Holding strong views and publicly promoting them does not an authoritarian make.

And, unlike Mormonism, they have not created personality cults around themselves, or allowed others to do it for them, as is true of Mormon leaders--yet another characteristics of a cult. They are not proclaiming "believe what I tell you or God will punish you." They are a very, very long way from anything akin to a religious cult leader.

Frankly, your examples suck.

by the way, the Mormon Church will discipline you for private dissent. For example, just ask any BYU student who leaves Mormonism, even if he/she keeps it to themselves. They will be kicked out of the University for mere belief. I would have lost my job there had I professed lack of belief. Nonetheless, public dissent will do you in much faster than private dissent, that's for sure.

Finally, to the extent an organization does display the authoritarian characteristics described above; I have two recommendations:

1. Fight (dissent)
2. Run like hell
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Post Reply