True story- recent too

[_dartagnan]

This is a take off from the Contradiction thread where someone raised the issue of milk and meat as provided by prospective converts. I felt compelled to share my recent experience with this.

In December my wife’s sister was married in the US and moved back to Brazil (Rio de Janeiro) a week later where she has two boys. Her husband stayed in Massachusetts and prepared to move to Brazil in February. He didn’t want to live in Rio because of the crime, so they decided to come live with us here in Brasilia. So I drove to Rio and picked up my sister-in-law and her two boys and brought them back here. It was a 16 hour drive back so we had plenty of time to talk about life. Her husband was not LDS but she was supremely confident that he would be baptized in the near future. She had been coaxing him with all the “milk” that makes Mormonism attractive, and from the few conversations he and I had over the phone, he seemed extremely open-minded. His father was a Pentecostal preacher, and surprisingly enough he did nothing to intervene with the marriage of his son to a Mormon, nor has he told him any “anti-Mormonisms” about the Church. So it seemed he was well groomed for an easy conversion. He seemed prepared to take the steps towards baptism. He attended Church every Sunday. He also attended the baptism of Christiano - their 8 year-old boy. He didn’t understand a word of Portuguese but there was usually someone to translate for him.

A few weeks after he arrived he started initiating private conversations with me about the Church. He had some concerns that he obtained from nowhere except his own conscience. Firstly, he asked me if Mormons think they are the “Only True Church.” I responded, “Yes, of course. That’s the whole point of the restoration” He then got frustrated because his wife had said the opposite. He heard this in one of the missionary discussions and when he asked his wife about this later she assured him the missionaries misspoke or were exaggerating. She knew it was a turn off for him. So when I answered him in the affirmative, it made him question more, and wonder if his wife had been keeping more truths away from him. Obviously she doesn’t want to shock him as to push him away from the path he is on, but was lying to him the best way to go about it? I mean let’s face it, she lied to him and I felt like I just screwed up because now I would be the bad guy. And lo and behold I get an earful the next day by my wife who said Christina (her sister) was upset with me for telling David anti-Mormon “things.” This led to another argument between my wife and I. I told her that he asked me a simple question and I answered it. I said I had no idea this would come as a shock to him. After all, he said the missionaries told him the same exact thing. In fact, anyone who sits through testimony meetings every month will hear the same thing routinely.

So that issue blew over without any more talk for about three weeks. Then one day I took him and his wife to the DMV to change their address information. His wife was in line as we sat among the 200+ in the auditorium. So we were talking about football and what not and then religion came up again. He started asking me about the multiple gods and tithing. At this point I was convinced he had been browsing the internet. But I was between a rock and a hard place again, for if I start talking to him about the Church I knew I was going to be in trouble with our wives. If I didn’t answer his questions, my own conscience would be jabbing at me for weeks. I didn’t want him to go into this completely blind so I decided I would answer his questions again. He asked me if tithing was a requirement. I said he has to commit to it before baptism. He immediately rolled his eyes and sighed, which told me the obvious: his wife had misinformed him again. Apparently, she said it was something you could do only if you wanted. I then told him that he couldn’t go to the temple unless he did it. That made him even more frustrated because his wife wants a temple marriage more than anything.

Well, this snowball took off downhill quickly and soon we were talking about everything from garments to becoming gods. After about an hour of discourse he just sat there with this look on his face like he just found out he was living in the Matrix. He just kept saying, “this isn’t for me… I don’t think I could ever believe this stuff.” I told him my honest opinion. I said it isn’t for everyone. I told him that I wasn’t the Peter Priesthood that people think I am. I told him I was convinced that some crucial things in Mormonism are wrong. However, I do not see it as any kind of danger for my kids and wife so I take them to Church. I then went on to talk about the positives about the Church and how it teaches moral principles for the family, etc. He didn’t seem interested in this at this point because he said other Churches do the same thing. But I knew what bothered him the most, even though he didn’t come right out and say it. He was upset with the fact that his wife would have him believe certain things about the Church that were not true, just so she could get married in the temple. What’s even crazier is the fact that she drinks beer every time there is a party in the neighborhood, and then whenever religion becomes the subject she gets all teary-eyed and bears her testimony that she knows the Church is true.

He also asked me what the deal was with the missionaries constantly asking him how he “felt” when he read the Book of Mormon. If he doesn’t feel anything they tell him to read it again and then they ask him the same question. He isn’t the sentimental type, so I kinda prepared him on what to expect. I told him where they were going with this. I explained that if he says he felt good, they will tell him that is the spirit of God telling him the church is true. Before I could finish explaining this he was shaking his head in the affirmative, confirming what I was saying. He asked me how I knew this and I said I was once a missionary and the conversion method is still the same. I told him that all he had to do to avoid being forced in a corner is to say he didn’t believe those good feelings – if he indeed felt them - were God’s answer.

I felt bad for the guy because he knew there were tremendous expectations for him to get baptized and now he is somewhat viewed as a disappointment at home. But he built up the courage and told his wife that he doesn’t want to go to Church anymore because “it isn’t for me.” He went with us last week because their 12 year-old boy gave a talk in sacrament. Incidentally, during the Sunday School class we heard the teacher call the Pope the anti-Christ. No kidding. This guy is from Utah, here working for the Embassy, and spoke with the crappiest Portuguese I think I have ever heard. I was translating what he was saying but I had to pause when he started going off on Catholics and the Pope. The subject was “Satan” so this naturally led to discussion about the anti-Christ. He said the Pope knows the truthfulness of the LDS gospel but he doesn’t convert because of “money and pride.” Yea, like that was going to go over well with David (my brother-in-law). He is quickly learning the ugly side of Mormonism. Most people join and become inactive because they later learn the stuff they should have been taught before baptism.

I guess what amazes me over the years is how Mormons will consciously steer prospective converts into the baptismal font while denying them basic facts. It seems the baptism means everything, and they assume all else will work itself out later. I guess their justification is that if the investigator claims to have felt the spirit, it doesn’t matter if you deny him some “meat,” even if he asks for it. I think the Church institutionalizes this method of conversion via ignorant bliss, and it resonates throughout the Church from one extreme to another.

The problem with this method is that it places all the guilt on the converted if he or she later decides they converted under false pretenses. I mean let's face it, how many Mormons sympathize with apostates who claim they were lured and pushed into the baptismal font? None. The guilt is now upon the apostate who is shunned for rejecting his "covenant" with God. ANd in all this hysteria about apostates being spiritless feinds, there is no room for any sense of responsibility, accountability or decency for the LDS who continue to shove investigators into the font by telling them what they think they want to hear.

This happened to me only to a small extent, but it was still there. My biggest concern was that my parents wouldn't be ale to attend my Temple wedding. I was told that I could have a civil wedding first and then a temple wedding immediately afterwards. This was a lie, but it was my only problem and it wouldn't be a problem anyone would have to worry about for a long time, so they figured it was OK to go ahead and lie to me about it.

[_Runtu]

Sadly, that's all too common. The difficult stuff is either downplayed or discounted in favor of the pleasing "milk." I wonder what it says about the church when its own members know that telling the whole truth about its teachings would drive away potential converts.

For what it's worth, you absolutely did the right thing.

[_guy sajer]

How does the song go, "marry the man today, change his ways tomorrow."

For a religion that professes to believe in the 10 Commandments, the ease with which its members and leaders justify shading the truth is a bit disturbing.

[_Yoda]

Kevin, did you sister in law really believe the things that she was telling her husband, or was she consciously lying?

[_harmony]

Kevin, did you sister in law really believe the things that she was telling her husband, or was she consciously lying?

One of the problems that I can see is that his SIL is willing to go to the end's of the earth for the guy, but only on her terms. She wants this, she wants that, so she manipulates him. She should be grateful there's a guy out there who wants to marry her. There can't be too many around who will take on two kids and a foreign country. She should cut her loses (the temple isn't what it's cracked up to be), get down on her knees and thank God for a good man who loves her enough to move halfway around the world and help her raise her boys.

[_Dr. Shades]

Wow, what a story. Thanks for sharing that. I think the most noteworthy part isn't the things the two of you discussed or his reaction thereunto, but rather the whole shebang about your sister-in-law feeling the need to lie in the first place. Was her conduct taught to her, or was it instinctual, I wonder?

As for me, I only have a minor story in this regard. When I was on my mission, the idea of outright lying never entered my head (since I couldn't picture Christ lying to any potential disciples), but I was rather bothered by the fact that certain "blips of history" (as President Hinckley would say) were never brought up. Historical items that, while not necessarily relevant to Mormonism today, might nevertheless be relevant to an investigator when weighing whether or not to be baptized.

Specifically, when it came to the one convert I did have/see/get/whatever, she was female so I was quite bothered by the fact that the lessons could progress someone through all the discussions up to baptism without ever mentioning polygamy once. Wouldn't potential converts want to know that?

I more or less rationalized this by thinking that the Brethren who authorized the lesson plan knew what they were doing, so who was I to question the Lord's annointed? I figured that they figured that investigators could "handle" such knowledge better once they had the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Regardless of my grave concerns, my Mormon friends would say that all's well that ends well, since she's an active, temple-married Latter-day Saint to this day.

I was told that I could have a civil wedding first and then a temple wedding immediately afterwards. This was a lie, but it was my only problem and it wouldn't be a problem anyone would have to worry about for a long time, so they figured it was OK to go ahead and lie to me about it.

Now that's tragic, since it has a palpable effect on your life.

[_CaliforniaKid]

This story is truly tragic. I can sympathize with the guy. The only girl I ever loved was the daughter of the bishop of the local ward. Of course, that was not going to work, what with me being adamant (even moreso at the time than now) about certain aspects of church history being false. I went to seminary with her for about half a year, at which point the teacher came to me and asked what was holding me back from getting baptized. I told her there were several things, but gave as an example the racism of certain past General Authorities and the priesthood ban. She went home and found an anti-Mormon website and read up on it. The next day she told me that if Brigham really had said those things, she could see why it would bother me. I informed her that he had said them (I had recently dropped a few hundred bucks and bought a hardcopy of the JoD to verify things for myself) and that Bruce R. McConkie had even said that black people were born black as a punishment for being less valiant in the pre-existence. Her eyes brightened and she said, "That's kind of what I think, too!" I was dumbfounded. I left feeling sick to my stomach, and I don't think I went to seminary after that (or if I did, I stopped a short time later). I did get a certificate of completion for the D&C year though. The girl is now married to a recently-returned missionary. We still keep in touch. I tried to sit down and talk to him at the wedding reception but he gave me a dirty look and excused himself. Oh, the twisted webs we weave.

This happened to me only to a small extent, but it was still there. My biggest concern was that my parents wouldn't be ale to attend my Temple wedding. I was told that I could have a civil wedding first and then a temple wedding immediately afterwards. This was a lie, but it was my only problem and it wouldn't be a problem anyone would have to worry about for a long time, so they figured it was OK to go ahead and lie to me about it.

That why you moved to Brazil? ;-)

-CK

[_moksha]

Kevin, has there been any end result of this yet?

[_Bond...James Bond]

This story is truly tragic. I can sympathize with the guy. The only girl I ever loved was the daughter of the bishop of the local ward. Of course, that was not going to work, what with me being adamant (even moreso at the time than now) about certain aspects of church history being false. I went to seminary with her for about half a year, at which point the teacher came to me and asked what was holding me back from getting baptized. I told her there were several things, but gave as an example the racism of certain past General Authorities and the priesthood ban. She went home and found an anti-Mormon website and read up on it. The next day she told me that if Brigham really had said those things, she could see why it would bother me. I informed her that he had said them (I had recently dropped a few hundred bucks and bought a hardcopy of the JoD to verify things for myself) and that Bruce R. McConkie had even said that black people were born black as a punishment for being less valiant in the pre-existence. Her eyes brightened and she said, "That's kind of what I think, too!" I was dumbfounded. I left feeling sick to my stomach, and I don't think I went to seminary after that (or if I did, I stopped a short time later). I did get a certificate of completion for the D&C year though. The girl is now married to a recently-returned missionary. We still keep in touch. I tried to sit down and talk to him at the wedding reception but he gave me a dirty look and excused himself. Oh, the twisted webs we weave.

Ouch...I have had a quasi-similar experience....when are they going to do a Dateline on "Inter-Religious Dating: Killer of Otherwise Compatible Relationships" with part two "The LDS: They May Love Ya But They Won't Date Ya....Why? Because You Weren't Born In The Church Of Course".

[_dartagnan]

Hey, I met my wife on LDSsingles.com if you can believe that.

The only reason I got on it was because everyone I knew was married and they kinda coerced me into it. So I decided to try it out, but under one condition. I would only talk to women who lived in other countries because I was NOT going to get married!