No Intellectual Discipline Without Formal Education.

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_qknowlton
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Post by _qknowlton »

That was precisely my point, Loran. You are confusing the term "expertise" with "discipline"/"professionalism." Just look at your recent exchange with gknowlton. Now, I could be mistaken, and you guys could have a history that I'm unaware of, but it seemed to me that you leapt right into your belittling comments about his intelligence, moral scruples, etc. That is not a sign of discipline or professionalism---by any measure---and it only reinforces my (and Bond's, apparently) sense that you lack this stuff on account of your never having completed college


If it weren't for the fact that I have taught for many years and worked with many difficult students I think I would be quite angry about Loran's belittling insults. However, I know that people who are insecure and unsure of themselves always have to put down others to make them feel better. Students often do this by arguing, insulting and antagonizing others, especially the teacher. Their superiority complex (perhaps inferiority complex) drives them to act so.

Confucious said "shu shi si de, xue xi shi huo de" which means 'studying is alive, and books are dead'. Education, whether its in formal surroundings or informal, depends on the individual and how they apply their knowledge. Having said that I think the most important thing is how a person uses their knowledge through interaction with others. Do they arrogantly flaunt technical vernacular to appear intelligent? Do they make personal attacks when their points are disproven? Are they egocentricaly opinionated? Are they open to new ideas?

A truely wise person listens more than they speak and thinks twice before judging others.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

The Nehor wrote:How about a thread where everyone guesses Scratch's specialties. I'm thinking Reproductive Therapy, Victorian Poetry, Astrophysics, and Confucian Thought.


I was thinking of following in Scratch's Footsteps and majoring in: Great Movie Quotes, Snacks of Super Bowl Sunday, Underwater Candle Making, Crate and Cape makers of the Caspian Sea, and Neo-Nigerian Nacho Making :)
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Would those nachos be made by the Nigerian tribe recently reported on MAD as being long-lost descendants of the House of Israel?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Sethbag wrote:Would those nachos be made by the Nigerian tribe recently reported on MAD as being long-lost descendants of the House of Israel?


Of course...the nachos are kosher.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The benefits of college:

1) The experience of dealing with ideas and the perceptions of ideas that are different from views ones self holds (in Cogs case his views on things would always be coloured by his upbringing and so forth (not good or bad...just the way things are)...in college you are bombarded with ideas from many different viewpoints and may find a new way of looking at something that couldn't be deciphered by reading books.

2) Being credited through independent testing in classes (which is sort of like a proto-peer review)...you're being taught by people who themselves have been credited through their own testing sessions (PH.D program or graduate school)...they can help with #1....giving ideas and points of view that you may not get due to your own flaws.

3) The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how many books you read or how many things you learn, college gives you more points of view through teachers and other students, which help alter your points of view....you also learn more correct methodologies and how to appraise sources and materials, rather than believing everything you take in through your 5 senses (I really learned this point about appraising sources for authenticity and objectivity).

That's all I got right now.....




Excellent points, and I'm aware of all of them, which is why I'm going back. Just one question, why do you assume that just because I don't have a long term college experience, that I've never tested my beliefs against those of others over my life time? True, I've never been tested in a formal way by experts in certain fields of inquiry, but you make it sound as if I've spent my entire life in my living room.

Not the case, I assure you.
_cacheman
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Post by _cacheman »

Confucious said "shu shi si de, xue xi shi huo de" which means 'studying is alive, and books are dead'. Education, whether its in formal surroundings or informal, depends on the individual and how they apply their knowledge. Having said that I think the most important thing is how a person uses their knowledge through interaction with others. Do they arrogantly flaunt technical vernacular to appear intelligent? Do they make personal attacks when their points are disproven? Are they egocentricaly opinionated? Are they open to new ideas?

That about sums it up.

cacheman
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

LOL! You'd love that, wouldn't you? No, I am not going to do that. We've been over this before. We all know the penchant that Mopologists and TBMs such as yourself have for ad hominem attack, and worse. Thus, I won't be revealing any of this information to you.



I don't want to fall back into the ad hominem mode that I'm trying hard to get away from here, but Scratch, I'm sorry, seems just like the poseur, intellectual hack, and self satisfied polemicist I've always thought him to be based upon both some of his beliefs and, in particular, the way he goes about articulating and defending them.

If I had advanced degrees, I'd make them clear (especially in discussion where they were particularly relevant). I've made clear my limited formal education as well as an entire adult life time spent, to a great extent, pursuing knowledge (I never allowed the limited finances I've struggled with most of my life to impede that learning. I can't go to college? Fine, I'll study anyway).

Even if Scratch did have a formal degree, its clear to me that he would only use it as a club to beat those with whom he disagrees, just as he uses the fact that I'm living in the South (and nothing wrong with that. This keeps up even thought I've told him a zillion times where I was born and raised and where I've spent most of my life)

One of the worst things I can think of, whether one has a degree or not, is intellectual snobbery, especially when there is little behind it but rhetoric.

Scratch, are your degrees a big, hairy secret? Tell us the Gnosis. Let us know by what right you attack me on each and every issue from political history to economics to the history of the Tienanmen Square massacre to homosexuality to film criticism. You have every right to do that of course, my interests are quite varied and wide ranging. However, I don't claim to be smarter than everyone else. I claim to have better ideas and arguments than others with whom I disagree, but not that my education per se allows me to flummox others by definition. I've heard children intellectually flummox adults on occasion.

So Scratch, wave your degree in my face. Let's see it.
Last edited by Dr. Sunstoned on Fri May 25, 2007 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Does Scratch ever consider the time spend in front of the TV set or the time spent on the Internet in his assessment of educational achievement? How does Scratch's assessment vary from Juliann's?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

But where a degree and Coggins could use some interesecting, is in what seems to be a bad combination between his obsession with dense jargon, and shotgunning sources out.


Well, I disagree on your assessment of my writing style (I rarely if ever use jargon. I frankly don't know what you mean by this), as subjective as that all might be, but skull, I haven't seen you do much, in your long posts of criticism, do much more that write long paragraphs of explanatory or descriptive material. That is, statements of your opinions. What I haven't seen are extended, logical, coherent arguments elucidating why I should believe or accept your opinions. Take for example, your claims of mind washing and indoctrination in the church.

Your entire defense of this against me has been a logically closed, a self referential counter claim that my very defense of the Church is evidence, if not proof, of my indoctrination. How can anyone who short circuits critical thinking in this way (by avoiding having to either justify or refute the arguments of others altogether) claim to hold court over the intellectual ability of others, including Shirts (whom I respect, thought disagree with strongly on occasion)?
_Bond...James Bond
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Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:49 am

Post by _Bond...James Bond »

Coggins7 wrote:
The benefits of college:

1) The experience of dealing with ideas and the perceptions of ideas that are different from views ones self holds (in Cogs case his views on things would always be coloured by his upbringing and so forth (not good or bad...just the way things are)...in college you are bombarded with ideas from many different viewpoints and may find a new way of looking at something that couldn't be deciphered by reading books.

2) Being credited through independent testing in classes (which is sort of like a proto-peer review)...you're being taught by people who themselves have been credited through their own testing sessions (PH.D program or graduate school)...they can help with #1....giving ideas and points of view that you may not get due to your own flaws.

3) The point I'm trying to make is that no matter how many books you read or how many things you learn, college gives you more points of view through teachers and other students, which help alter your points of view....you also learn more correct methodologies and how to appraise sources and materials, rather than believing everything you take in through your 5 senses (I really learned this point about appraising sources for authenticity and objectivity).

That's all I got right now.....




Excellent points, and I'm aware of all of them, which is why I'm going back. Just one question, why do you assume that just because I don't have a long term college experience, that I've never tested my beliefs against those of others over my life time? True, I've never been tested in a formal way by experts in certain fields of inquiry, but you make it sound as if I've spent my entire life in my living room.

Not the case, I assure you.


I don't....I figured you would have since you've been around a year or two longer than me. Just that a classroom discussion with a teacher/moderator is something I've found to be more lasting and effective than an unstructured discussion with a pal or two (or discussion on a faceless message board).
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
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