True story- recent too

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_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Blixa wrote:I think history (not myth, a.k.a., adamandeve) shows that marraige alliances have taken many forms in many different societies outside of a christian paradigm.

Currently, it is just as much a legal/political category as a religious one, if not more so.

I'm an atheist and eschew marriage for the patriarchal baggage it carries, yet my long term boyfriend/partner/comrade/lover and I married because we live in a society in which access to healthcare is not a fundamental right of all citizens. Thus, we married in order to be able to share health insurance.

I certainly never wanted to get married, and assumed I never would. But it seemed a practical compromise worth making. We lived together as a couple for about six years, had talked about getting married if and when one of us had a full-time gig with health insurance and the other needed healthcare. I got my first tenure track job; he needed a root canal. So we bought a license, called the list of people authorized to "solemnize" the thing, booked the first guy who said he'd do it the next day and were married in a courthouse by the mayor of a nearby municipality.

10 years later almost to the date, that damn tooth had to be pulled. I saved it and I'm blinging it out to wear on a chain. I call it "The Marriage Tooth." I think we've been married 14 years now.

How time flies when you're selling out ; )


LOL
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Some Schmo wrote:If, at the time I was married 12 years ago, I thought that marriage was only a divine religious ceremony, I'd never have been motivated to do it.

We got married by a Justice of the Peace in my wife's parents' house, had some friends over, and spent way more money on our honeymoon than the ceremony itself (I think we spent something like $600 for the whole thing, including dress and rings, and about $2000 on the two week vacation after). The main reason we did it was because we thought raising children in a house with married parents would be best for the kids when we had them, but we also felt like we were family (we'd been living together 3.5 years at that point), so why not benefit from the tax breaks?

God, religious myths, and Santa Claus had nothing to do with it.

As for the original story, I think it's pretty damn funny (in a tragic comedy sort of way) that your SIL got mad at you for telling the truth. How dare you obey the lord?

LOL


I've decided I'm eloping and then throwing a party after the honeymoon and calling it a reception to get gifts.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

The Nehor wrote: I've decided I'm eloping and then throwing a party after the honeymoon and calling it a reception to get gifts.


I fully endorse this plan.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

Some Schmo wrote:
The Nehor wrote: I've decided I'm eloping and then throwing a party after the honeymoon and calling it a reception to get gifts.


I fully endorse this plan.


That's exactly what I did. except the party wasn't aimed at getting gifts - it was a good excuse to get friends together at the beach for a party. To discourage traditional gifts, we registered only at Toys R Us. I haven't regretted eloping for a minute - I was much more comfortable in my Spam t-shirt and jeans than I would have been in a foo-foo dress, and there was a lot less stress.

by the way - neither my husband nor I are religious, but we opted for marriage for the legal protections and to provide a framework for raising kids. And more importantly to use a societal mechanism to acknowledge a dedication to each other. With or without religion, I think people can still benefit from monogamy, which we've opted to do.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

skippy the dead wrote:That's exactly what I did. except the party wasn't aimed at getting gifts - it was a good excuse to get friends together at the beach for a party. To discourage traditional gifts, we registered only at Toys R Us. I haven't regretted eloping for a minute - I was much more comfortable in my Spam t-shirt and jeans than I would have been in a foo-foo dress, and there was a lot less stress.

by the way - neither my husband nor I are religious, but we opted for marriage for the legal protections and to provide a framework for raising kids. And more importantly to use a societal mechanism to acknowledge a dedication to each other. With or without religion, I think people can still benefit from monogamy, which we've opted to do.


I do plan to elope to the Temple though so t-shirt and jeans would probably not work.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

Some Schmo wrote:
The Nehor wrote: I've decided I'm eloping and then throwing a party after the honeymoon and calling it a reception to get gifts.


I fully endorse this plan.


So do I.

Marriage is a good thing, but weddings are a scam.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

I disagree with almost everything you are saying here, but I don’t have time to debate you on all of the details. I will simply claim that marriage is primarily about human beings and the way we interact with each other


Marriage has come to mean whatever one wants it to mean, but I am talking about its origin. I am not talking about how people have adopted this concept and applied it in their lives while discarding the religious baggage. For theists it is a divine concept sanctioned by God. For atheists, it can be whatever they want it to be, and I have no problem with that.

and that its origin and nature is best explained by Sociology


Yes, humans are social creatures. But marriage is more than just socializing. It began as a divine concept. The earliest texts indicate as much. It is naïve to think humans would go the monogamous relationship route without some kind of outside influence (religious authority). Monogamy goes completely against human nature if history is any indicator. This is evidenced by the fact that most people are not monogamous, even those who are married; and even the religious couples.

Further, a glance at the global divorce rates indicates that countries that are particularly religious, maintain lower rates. The US divorce rate is among the worse at nearly 5 per thousand whereas the lowest seven are Muslim or Catholic countries (all under .4 per thousand). The countries with least successful marriages are secular countries like Russia, Ukraine, Cuba, US, Finland, Czech Repulic, New Zealand, Australia and Canada.

The point is that there seems to be no reason for secularists to take marriage as seriously as theists do. If it is merely a social “symbol” made in the tradition of men, it is always viewed as an impermanent union. Whereas in religious contexts you’re tinkering with separating what God has joined together, so there is naturally more effort involved in trying to make it work. For temple Mormons the stakes are extremely high and divorce is almost never an option.

not about the contradictory things that diverse ancient cultures believed that their varied gods had to say about it.


Contradictory things? Whether they contradict at in certain texts is beside the point here. The earliest recorded histories define the origin of marriage as a divine institution. If you think these ancient religious authors were merely borrowing a sociological concept from their neighboring atheists, then I would be most welcoming to any evidence for this.

Marriage as a natural sociological human phenomenon would make more sense if it was something that generally worked. But it seems to work more in environments where religious authorities are constantly trying to keep the couple together.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Analytics
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Post by _Analytics »

D: Yes, humans are social creatures. But marriage is more than just socializing. It began as a divine concept. The earliest texts indicate as much.

A: Just because a text says it is a divine concept doesn't mean that the real reason it came about was really divine and not sociological. In any case, could you give an example or two of the "earliest texts" you are referring to?

D: It is naïve to think humans would go the monogamous relationship route without some kind of outside influence (religious authority). Monogamy goes completely against human nature if history is any indicator. This is evidenced by the fact that most people are not monogamous, even those who are married; and even the religious couples.

A: Are we talking about monogamy or marriage? Or are we talking about marriages where monogamy is part of the contract? My understanding is that the in general, ancient marriages didn't entail commitments of monogamy, but rather allowed for polygamy and concubines.

D: The point is that there seems to be no reason for secularists to take marriage as seriously as theists do. If it is merely a social “symbol” made in the tradition of men, it is always viewed as an impermanent union. Whereas in religious contexts you’re tinkering with separating what God has joined together, so there is naturally more effort involved in trying to make it work. For temple Mormons the stakes are extremely high and divorce is almost never an option.

A: Not necessarily. A counter example is the high-councilman I knew in my last branch who had a "Saturday's Warrior" moment when he decided that a nurse at the hospital was his predestined eternal companion, and used these religious beliefs as a justification for divorcing his first wife.

Marriage is fundamentally a contract. Some theists take their contracts more seriously because of their religious beliefs, and others use their religious beliefs to rationalize breaking their contracts. Likewise, there are atheists who for various motivations honor their contracts and others who don't.

Did the concept of "separating what God has joined together" exist before New Testament times?

It appears you are talking about a very specific type of marriage, namely marriages that entail commitments of monogamy. If that is what you are talking about, then I would need to rethink about whether or not I agree with you. But marriage per se existed long before Jesus said "what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder".

I may be wrong. What are the earilest texts that define marriage?
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
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